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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 14, 2009 - 07:00pm PT
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Buddha, would never say that because he's not there, and Hindu's can't squander it because they will be coming back again and again?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
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How old is the earth?
When did Homo Sapiens first appear, how long ago?
Why do we have "tail bones"?
Why do males have nipples?
Why is it SO difficult for some people to believe humans simply evolved?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2009 - 07:14pm PT
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answer the questions
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 07:20pm PT
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Norton, I wonder why you find the need to make people disbelieve their favorite fairy tales. In one respect, I think it is because they occasionally try to teach fairy tales to our children in public schools. I can see why you might not like that.
For myself, I don't generally bother to burst other people's imaginary world. Without the intellectual framework to support a reality view, there is nothing for them to fall back on. I don't want to try to force on anyone a view that they might find bleak or uncomforting to them. They are quite happy now. Why change things?
Now that I try to state my views, I actually find it difficult to put it to words. I'll have to think on it some more.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Oct 14, 2009 - 07:28pm PT
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Here's an interesting question to the Christians, but adjust it to yourself by adding Christian and removing your appropriate line. My apologies for not being well rounded enough to include more but I'm not that knowledgeable:
If the Aztecs were wrong,
if the Egyptians were wrong,
if the Greek were wrong,
if the Romans were wrong,
if the Buddhists are wrong,
if the Hindi are wrong,
if the Jews are wrong,
if the Muslims are wrong,
if the ... are wrong,
How the hell can you think that you are right when you have nothing more to go on then any of them? What do you know that is different than what they know/knew other than your parents telling you when you were born that you are right and all others are wrong. A 1700 year old book doesn't count since most religions have one of those.
Dave
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 07:37pm PT
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"I also thank George Mason, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison."
All Christians!
Jefferson had Deist and Unitarian beliefs.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2009 - 07:40pm PT
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Brian, the difference is that children soon realize that fairy tales are
silly stories their parents told them to amuse them.
I don't have a problem with favorite fairy tales.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 07:54pm PT
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It seems people with stong convictions often base it on 'The experience of God in everyday life.'
Who I am to say they are wrong when I haven't experienced that myself?
How can they expect me to believe when I haven't experienced that myself?
How can you know you have experienced God when it could just be your own mind letting you experience what you expect/want?
As long as you are not infringing on me, be happy and believe what you want.
You can learn a lot from different beliefs even if you don't subsribe to them ,as long as you maintain an open mind.
I like this website:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Anaheim, CA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 07:55pm PT
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Norton, once people reach a certain age, brains lose plasticity. Once a pattern of belief replaces the ability to think, there is no going back. Myself included. I like to think of myself as being open-minded, but an objective look would probably expose me as having the same sort of fixed ideas I supposedly revile.
Even so, espousing a philosophy of openness, of liberal thought, it's noble to my way of thinking.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 07:55pm PT
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Norton,
As Cragman told you, "the truth will set you free". What Cragman did not tell you
(although you may already be aware of it) is that The Truth is not a condition, a construct,
an alignment of your thoughts with reality....
The Truth is a person: He said I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life.... The Truth is a person,
Jesus, and he (and only he) can set you free.
Doug
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 14, 2009 - 08:11pm PT
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"How the hell can you think that you are right when you have nothing more to go on then any of them?"
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Oct 14, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
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Deano,
it appears he missed it the first time around,
and knowing how slow I am to learn things a reminder can be helpful
Doug
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 14, 2009 - 08:35pm PT
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 14, 2009 - 09:28pm PT
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“Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it."
Me, me, me. It's all about the Jesus. What an annoying person.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 14, 2009 - 10:09pm PT
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"If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 14, 2009 - 10:15pm PT
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I sure hope everyone realizes we will all be held to account for what we say and do even here on ST.
I'm not the most perfect, that is for sure. But I have tried not to belittle others, call them names, and I certainly don't say anything derogatory regarding someones faith, even if I do not agree. I can respectfully agree to disagree.
Posting really derogatory stuff is really bad karma. It follows you to eternity.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 14, 2009 - 10:43pm PT
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"I am raising the question as to what the word christian means when each of us gets to decide who is a christian and who isn't according to whatever criteria we want at a particular moment."...
Anyone who loves Christ can “call” themselves Christian, if they choose to.
In the end, who you or I call a Christian may not be binding.
I’d suggest considering Christ’s own declaration; “If ye love me, keep my commandments”(John 14:15).
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MH2
climber
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Oct 14, 2009 - 10:53pm PT
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I'm happy to let god judge me
Amen, Homer.
I preferred Martin Gardner's skepticism to Michael Shermer. Less wordy.
Skepticism an impenetrable prophylactic? What's going on over there?
Linus Pauling, right up there close to God.
Now in my day job I go around and photograph weird bugs and sparkly dewdrops but in my night job I often attend to old people who are dying.
WBraun I consider to be beyond my ken; not a person I would be comfortable to comment on in any way whatsoever. I am curious, though, what he would make of our current customary medical practice of giving dying people small doses, 2-5 mg every 4 hours for example, of morphine. Even then, we try to give morphine only when there are signs of distress, like tension or grimacing in the face, restless movement, or groaning. There is a recognized problem in that a few people who may only have pneumonia or some such may die earlier than they would have without our attentions, but our doses are so low and our staff are so afraid of killing someone that I don't think I've seen an example of that at our place. I have had a family tell me, "But Andy, this is her end-of-life!" when I stopped giving the sub-q ativan/morphine/scopolamine after a resident on palliative measures began to perk up.
The bigger question is whether death should be as natural as possible. Whatever the orthodoxy, there are skeptics and usually they should at least be listened to.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 14, 2009 - 10:59pm PT
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OK. We have no idea who is a christian and who is not because determining whether they both actually love Christ and also follow his commandments is largely a matter of dispute not open to factual determination.
Since there is no method for determining the fact then I personally shall consider there to be no actual Christians. Only claimants.
Thank you,
MH2:
When my mother was dying of colon cancer we were not able to control her pain. Until Curt's death I had assumed, had we gotten enough medication, that this would have been possible. It seems an open question to me now. My mother refused all food and water and was dead in two weeks. More recently I have read that this is not an uncommon occurrence. You may know more than do I.
In an end of life situation I think we have to go with the wishes of the dying person. I think this is their right.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Oct 14, 2009 - 11:09pm PT
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So most of those of you who are Christians say you are so because of your faith and because God/Jesus has spoken to you.
But most adherents to other religions would say the same thing. Can you tell me how to determine in a scientific manner which is right?
Thought not.
It's dependent on faith. That's fine. Faith up to a reasonable point is a good thing.
But let's not confuse it with something testable and scientific.
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