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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 10, 2009 - 08:53am PT
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"...condemning the act of Hamas sending rockets over the fence at innocent people, those having nothing to do with the conflict, is just plain "ethical" in my book."
So WHY IS IT OF NO - TO YOU, ANYWAY - ETHICAL CONSEQUENCE THAT ISRAEL IS KILLING HUNDREDS, INJURING THOUSANDS, OF INNOCENT PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONFLICT?
Round and round she goes. Where she stops, nobody knows. Except that - we do know. Someone is going to push the 'wrong guy' and a nuclear weapon will be fired. And then, there will be a charred pit of a nation - could be ANY nation and not necessarily what any of us feels is "the bad guy" - that will make Hiroshima look like a small kitchen fire.
And....then what happens?
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
I don't even know anymore
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Jan 10, 2009 - 09:02am PT
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They all have their own reasons for wanting to slaughter each other, reasons that go beck long before any of us were even a glimmer in our fathers' eyes.
We should wash our hands of the whole thing, let them continue their wars. This means no meddling, no funding for the Israelis or the Palestinians.
Let 'em settle their differences for the next thousand(s) of years, develop our own energy sources, and if necessary, nuke 'em into a sheet of glass.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 10, 2009 - 09:09am PT
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Note: 28 Israelis have died in rocket attacks since they started in 2001. 235 Palestinian Children have died in the past two weeks. How far can you go and call it self-defense?
and again, was it self-defense that elevated the Jewish Population for Israel from 12,000 in 1845 to 6 million or so now? By comparison, there were 8000 jews in milwaukee in 1900. When does aggressive war stop and the stolen land become yours to self-defend?
The aggression goes both ways
Simple short Gaza FAQ from the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7818022.stm
Peace
Karl
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Jan 10, 2009 - 10:35am PT
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"Every year, the United Nations General Assembly votes on a resolution entitled “Peaceful Settlement of the Palestine Question.” And every year the vote is the same: it’s the whole world on one side; Israel, the United States and some South Sea atolls and Australia on the other side. The vote this past year was 164-to-7. Every year since 1989—in 1989, the vote was 151-to-3, the whole world on one side, the United States, Israel and the island state of Dominica on the other side.
We have the Arab League, all twenty-two members of the Arab League, favoring a two-state settlement on the June 1967 border. We have the Palestinian Authority favoring that two-state settlement on the June 1967 border. We now have Hamas favoring that two-state settlement on the June 1967 border. The one and only obstacle is Israel, backed by the United States. That’s the problem. " Norman Finkelstein
The Zionist Power Configuration in the the US consisting of AIPAC and The Confrence of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations have effectively hijacked the United States government. Witness Thursdays vote in the senate. The US Senate passed a secretly drafted and fast-tracked resolution co-sponsored by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and Republican Senator Mitch McConnell by unanimous voice vote (meaning there will be no written record of who voted yes or who abstained) "recognizing the right of Israel to defend itself against attacks from Gaza and reaffirming the United States' strong support for Israel in its battle with Hamas" Senate staffers refer to this completely one sided piece of legislation as the AIPAC Bill.
How do they do it? How does a country of approximately 6-7 million people exert a strangle hold on the foriegn policy of the worlds only super power?
Some years ago I chanced upon a book written by ex- Illinois Republican Congressman, Paul Findley. The book, They Dare to Speak Out, was an early insight into the powers of AIPAC. Indeed Finley himself lost his Congressional seat through the actions of Israel's lobby. Money, not from the mid-west but from the east & west coasts, injected into his opponents campaign effectively ended his political career. And that is pretty much how it's done, money and lots of it. Although Jews make up roughly only 2% of the US population, there is tremendous concentrated wealth and a great desire amongst some, to fund Zionism.
AIPAC is perhaps the most infuential lobby in the United States. It is a very persistent and efficient organization. It's members are extremely dedicated to Israels cause. AIPAC frequently draws up legislation and gets it passed in both houses. Presently, the US gifts Israel $5 - 6 billion dollars a year, at a time when our own economy is very weak and uncertain. Today, Israel's per capita income is $30,000 and it's citizen enjoy universal health care. Still, we here in the US are funding them, even re-imbursing $200 million for the 2006 Lebenon attack. Not only do we provide the F16's, Appache gunships, the bombs, we even provide for their Jet fuel. Think about it for a second. Are these actions in the best interest of the the US tax payer or have our elected representitives sold out to a foriegn power? Shouldn't this be construed as treason? What's in it besides 911 or worse for us?
Zionism, from it's inception has always been about aquiring the land and often through the most ruthless methods. The current massacre (no, this is not a war) is but another in a never ending line as Robert Fisk of the London Independent illustrates this week; "So once again, Israel has opened the gates of hell to the Palestinians. Forty civilian refugees dead in a United Nations school, three more in another. Not bad for a night's work in Gaza by the army that believes in "purity of arms". But why should we be surprised? Have we forgotten the 17,500 dead – almost all civilians, most of them children and women – in Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon; the 1,700 Palestinian civilian dead in the Sabra-Chatila massacre; the 1996 Qana massacre of 106 Lebanese civilian refugees, more than half of them children, at a UN base; the massacre of the Marwahin refugees who were ordered from their homes by the Israelis in 2006 then slaughtered by an Israeli helicopter crew; the 1,000 dead of that same 2006 bombardment and Lebanese invasion, almost all of them civilians?"
There are those on this forum that continue to embrace the mainstream Israeli view point about protecting their citizens from rocket fire (or are they distress flares?). I'm afraid this is not the reason for the current incursion into Gaza. The real reason has everything to do with making life hell for the Palestinians, with the intent of them just giving up and going away; "This war on the people of Gaza isn’t really about rockets. Nor is it about “restoring Israel’s deterrence,” as the Israeli press might have you believe. Far more revealing are the words of Moshe Yaalon, then the Israeli Defense Forces chief of staff, in 2002: “The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.”
Rashid Khalidi
As long as AIPAC is allowed to function as a most effective lobby rather than an agent of a foriegn power I feel that there is little hope for any just and peaceful resolution to this conflict. I also hold little hope for president-elect Obama to make any meaningful change here. JUst yesterday, Hillary Clinton anounced neocon and ardent zionist, Dennis Ross as top US advisor to Middle East/ Iran. This does not bode well and reflects business as usual. I do believe the word is getting out and that at some point the people of this country are going to say enough already, but it will take alot of work. The debates on this forum are an important step. 5 years ago the subject was taboo. Regardless of the spin put on this by the mainstream US media Israeli actions are war crimes of the severest degree. Targeting a trapped civilian population who's borders are effectively sealed to prevent them from fleeing either by Israel or de-facto by Egypt (who also gets a $500 million annual US taxpayer funded bribe) is beyond comprehension. This is ethnic cleansing. Think about it, 200 plus children slaughtered. It is time to end financial support for this theocracy. Those who knowingly condone this are the sickest of humans. There are many Jewish voices for peace both here and in Israel and I think it time that their message is heard. Only through an informed narrative will it be possible to come to a just solution for both Israelis and Palestinians,
To all that speak out against this brutality, thank you
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 10, 2009 - 11:47am PT
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Jan 10, 2009 - 11:49am PT
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When a cartoon tells it all.
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jan 10, 2009 - 12:20pm PT
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When a cartoon tells it all......you have a very simple mind.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 10, 2009 - 12:22pm PT
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 10, 2009 - 12:33pm PT
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"We now have Hamas favoring that two-state settlement on the June 1967 border. The one and only obstacle is Israel,"
Ahad is delusional.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 10, 2009 - 01:31pm PT
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that's pretty offensive, Philo. I'm surprised you'd make something like that, much less post it.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 10, 2009 - 02:35pm PT
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I think that Philo's comic is rather brilliant. Sometimes the Truth hurts. That is, if you are attached to untruth. Yet the Truth will set you free. America and Israel do worship the almighty dollar. And trickle down economics does keep the little guy poor. As for the reference to Jeff, I think that Jeff is a big boy and can defend himself.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 10, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
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The complete demonization of any side is a sign of blindness and some negative "ism"
There but for the grace of God go You (and I)
Peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 10, 2009 - 04:40pm PT
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Happiegirl I am surprised you find my cartoon offensive when other's calls for the "nuclear" solution go unchallenged.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 10, 2009 - 05:04pm PT
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"when other's calls for the "nuclear" solution go unchallenged."
What are you talking about now? What call for a nuclear solution?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 10, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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I lived in an Orthodox Jewish Household for a couple long summers in UpState New Year while I delivered Bakery Goods to some local bungalow colonies, Yeshivas, and old resort hotels.
The food was great!
But it took a Jewish Girlfriend to get me to try Gefiltafish. Best thing I can say is that it tastes better than it looks.
Peace
Karl
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 10, 2009 - 05:43pm PT
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"Happiegirl I am surprised you find my cartoon offensive when other's calls for the "nuclear" solution go unchallenged."
Unfortunately, I have low expectations of the "nuclear solution" type. That doesn't mean I don't find that sort of comment revolting.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 10, 2009 - 06:12pm PT
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But not worth admonishing happie girl? The previous cartoon didn't bother you. Why?
Well Graniteclimber how about the recent post from Noshoesnobrain..."We should wash our hands of the whole thing, let them continue their wars. This means no meddling, no funding for the Israelis or the Palestinians.
Let 'em settle their differences for the next thousand(s) of years, develop our own energy sources, and if necessary, nuke 'em into a sheet of glass".
...For just one example
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 10, 2009 - 06:17pm PT
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This thread is long enough to childishly try to claim the centennial posts
900
Karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 10, 2009 - 06:25pm PT
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 10, 2009 - 07:33pm PT
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"But not worth admonishing happie girl? The previous cartoon didn't bother you. Why?"
Because the others were not created by a STian using another Stian personally, most likely is the reason for no comment from me.
Political cartoons against politicians - they sort of have to accept it's going to happen. They're so far removed they don't see the damned things anyway.
Had you posted the one in that cache of photographs, where Uncle Sam is soaking leisurely in a swimming pool of Palestinian blood, the leader of Israel having just gotten out and toweling off, and the western world obliviously getting a suntan - which had the same/similar meaning but wasn't personal, I would have found that an effective statement.
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