Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 04:22pm PT
|
Jolly - "Sorry to confuse you, I guess. We are talking about Prop 8, and the right to marriage. If you want to be honest, marriage is not something immediately found in nature. Creatures either find life partners, or they hump the hell out of the opposite sex all they want if they are strong enough. "We", humans created marriage, and I am sure no matter how you look at it, it is tied to some religious belief in all cultures. The problem lies in the issue that, in all the cultures going back to the ancients, marriage between a man and a women was expected. In all societies across the Earth, with no form of communication over the vast Oceans. So, one could argue that the idea of marriage came from our own natural instincts."
ok.. one item at a time..
"Sorry to confuse you, I guess."
 You guessed wrong. Didn't confuse. Just wanted clarification, as you have provided, thanks.
"We are talking about Prop 8, and the right to marriage. If you want to be honest, marriage is not something immediately found in nature. Creatures either find life partners, or they hump the hell out of the opposite sex all they want if they are strong enough."
You are correct sir. And true, marriage is not found in nature, like state later, it's man made. Just like laws. All of which can be foulable, in my honest opinion. But then again, we are in a unique place and time in the world.. This is America. We "say" equal rights to all.. but with prop 8, it says equal rights to all, except "them", the ones that are not like us.
""We", humans created marriage, and I am sure no matter how you look at it, it is tied to some religious belief in all cultures."
Agreed. Humans created every part of American life, starting with the constitution. This document does not have as much "us" "them" language as prop 8 supporters would like us to believe. And yes, agreed again, that marriage was created/started out of a religious base. If its the case that it is solely for the purpose of religious right (which we all still have) then the arguement can be made that LBGT marriage is outside of religion, but should be upheld with the same standard as any other.
"The problem lies in the issue that, in all the cultures going back to the ancients, marriage between a man and a women was expected."
True, but... times.. they have been changin'. We as humans must adapt or await our demise like the dinosaurs we sometimes are.
"So, one could argue that the idea of marriage came from our own natural instincts."
Sorry. Have to differ on this point. I guess, over time I may have had this instinct you mention... but the time has past, and I fully realize that I can bring true happiness to any female who would have me. At least none of the movie story happiness that they sometimes seem to expect. (This may be just my own view, and in no way applies to every female out there. If she can be happy with nothing, then she may be able to find it with me.)
Not sure that it is instinctual at all. If 2 children were raised on an island, without the outside influence, I'm not sure they would find the need to take part in a cerimony to celebrate the love they may or may not have for one another. I'm pretty sure that they might find a way to survive together and live long lives, experience happy times and weather the storms... Just like you and me.
Cheers
P.S. Isn't there supposed to be a seperation of church and state? State can recognize anything it wants. Church can recognize anything it wants... Where's the beef with allowing the LGBT community to marry? Still don't get it. Especially when it has no effect on anyone other than those 2 getting hitched?
so... Prop. 8 Supporters--YOU (STILL) SUCK!!!
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
CA
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 07:32pm PT
|
He's worried that his kid is going to be recruited by the Gay Conspiracy.
Or worse still, Gay Illegal Immigrant Commies!!!!!! Ahhhhh!!!!
(carry on...)
|
|
Gene
Social climber
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
|
Or worse still, Gay Illegal Immigrant Commies!!!!!! Ahhhhh!!!!
(carry on...)
Or worse still, Gay Illegal Immigrant Anchor Baby Dropping Mosque Attending Burqa Wearing Commies on Welfare!!!!!! Ahhhhh!!!!
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
|
California Same Sex Weddings Can Start Next Week:
SAN FRANCISCO — The federal judge who struck down California's gay marriage ban said Thursday that same-sex weddings can resume next week unless an appeals court intervenes before then.
The news raised hopes among gay couples that they soon could tie the knot after years of agonizing delays.
"We just want equal rights. We're tired of being second-class citizens," said Amber Fox, 35, who went to the Beverly Hills Municipal Courthouse on Thursday morning in hopes of marrying her partner. The couple wed in Massachusetts in June but wanted to make it official in their home state.
The Foxes left the courthouse without exchanging vows after the ruling by Chief U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker in a case many believe is destined for the Supreme Court.
Walker decided to give gay marriage opponents until next Wednesday to ask the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to block same-sex weddings while it decides their appeal. If the appeals court chooses not to get involved, Walker said county clerks may begin issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples at 5 p.m. on Wednesday.
Walker last week struck down the state's gay marriage ban, known as Proposition 8, saying that the voter-approved law is unconstitutional.
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 08:01pm PT
|
Gay marriage means less government intrusion into people's lives, creates stable families and is good for the economy. Why so much opposition from conservatives?
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
CA
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
|
Gay marriage means less government intrusion into people's lives, creates stable families and is good for the economy.
How does it create stable 'families'?
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 08:36pm PT
|
Married couples have equal legal rights with respect to their children.
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
|
Study: Same-sex couples can thrive as adoptive parents
A groundbreaking study by researchers at the University of Virginia and George Washington University finds that children adopted by lesbian and gay male couples develop just as well as those adopted by heterosexual parents.
The findings, published in the August issue of the journal Applied Developmental Science, are important because of the debate surrounding gay parenting. Same-sex couples are barred from adopting children in Florida, Mississippi and Utah. A similar case is in the Arkansas courts.
All this is rooted in "the deeply entrenched belief that children need one male and one female parent for optimal development," the authors write. Numerous studies have affirmed the parenting skills of lesbian parents -- less is known about the capabilities of gay male parents -- but the studies have been criticized for using self-reported data or for lacking comparison groups of heterosexual couples.
There are no such deficiencies in the current study, titled "Parenting and Child Development in Adoptive Families: Does Parental Sexual Orientation Matter?" It was penned by U-Va. researchers Rachel Farr and Charlotte Patterson and GWU scholar Stephen Forssell.
They studied the development of preschool-age children adopted at birth by 27 lesbian couples, 29 gay male couples and 50 heterosexual couples, most in the D.C. and Mid-Atlantic region. The researchers gathered data on child development from parents, teachers and care-givers. Their hypothesis: The development of both child and adult would hinge more on each couple's parenting abilities -- stress, cooperation, laundry skills -- than on their sexual orientation.
And that is what they found. Same-sex parents, and their adoptive children, fared just as well as heterosexual families. It's worth noting that this study apparently represents the first time that independent reports from teachers on children's development and behavior have been considered alongside the self-reported data from the parents themselves.
"Research suggests that family processes, such as parenting quality and attachment, are more important predictors of child outcomes than is family structure," the study says. "These associations have been found both in biological and adoptive families, and among families with lesbian, gay parents and heterosexual parents."
Even the gender development of children adopted by same-sex couples -- perhaps the greatest concern of some critics -- mirrored that of children adopted by heterosexual couples.
"Regardless of whether their parents were lesbian, gay or heterosexual, most boys exhibited behavior typical of other same-aged boys, and most girls exhibited behavior typical of other same-aged girls," the authors write.
The implication: From a public policy stance, the study suggests there is "no justification for denying lesbian and gay prospective adoptive parents the opportunity to adopt children," Patterson, the lead researcher, said.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/college-inc/2010/07/study_lesbian_gay_couples_thri.html
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
|
Children of Same-Sex Couples Do as Well as Other Children
(Washington) — An analysis of multiple studies of 500 households shows that rearing children in a same-sex household does not affect the their self-esteem, gender identity, or emotional health, a Boston researcher reported.
"Pediatricians need to recognize that there are variations in families and learn what kind of advice to give them to optimize the child's development," said Ellen Perrin, MD, professor of pediatrics at Tufts-New England Medical Center in Boston, Massachusetts.
The researcher and colleagues looked at data from 15 studies evaluating possible stigma, teasing, social isolation, adjustment, sexual orientation, and strengths. The findings were presented here at the American Academy of Pediatrics National Conference and Exhibition.
"The vast consensus of the studies is that children of same-sex parents do as well as children whose parents are heterosexual in every way," Dr. Perrin said. "In some ways, children of same-sex parents actually may have advantages over other family structures."
It has been estimated that one to six million children are being reared by committed lesbian or gay couples in this country. Some children were born to a heterosexual couple and later raised by a same-sex couple; others were placed in foster homes, were adopted, or conceived through a surrogate mother through artificial insemination.
Previous studies of same-sex parenting have been criticized for being biased, but Dr. Perrin said the research team was extremely careful to select only solid, evidence-based research for review.
Based on nine studies from 1981 to 1994 of 260 children, aged three to 11 years, reared by either heterosexual mothers or same sex-mothers after divorce, the researchers found there was no difference in intelligence of the children, type or prevalence of psychiatric disorders, self-esteem, well-being, peer relationships, or parental stress. "The children all had a similar emotional experiences with divorce," she said.
What they did find was that after divorce children being reared by lesbian mothers had more contact with fathers than children reared by divorced heterosexual mothers, Dr. Perrin said. "There are interesting suggestions that these children are more tolerant of differences."
A separate longitudinal study of 37 children of 27 divorced lesbian mothers and an equal number of children with divorced heterosexual mothers found no differences in behavior, adjustment, gender identity, and peer relationships.
"What is exciting about this study was that they followed the children 11 years later when they became adults," Dr. Perrin said. "But they still found no difference in adjustment, self-esteem, psychiatric or psychological problems, family relationships, or in identifying sexual orientation."
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/514477
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
CA
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
|
Married couples have equal legal rights with respect to their children.
How do gay people have children??
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
|
(WashStudy: Same-Sex Parents Raise Well-Adjusted Children:
-- Children growing up in same-sex parental households do not necessarily have differences in self-esteem, gender identity, or emotional problems from children growing up in heterosexual parent homes.
"There are a lot of children with at least one gay or lesbian parent," says Ellen C. Perrin, MD, professor of pediatrics at Tufts University School of Medicine in Boston. She revealed the findings at the American Academy of Pediatrics Conference and Exhibition.
Between 1 million and 6 million children in the U.S. are being reared by committed lesbian or gay couples, she says. Children being raised by same-sex parents were either born to a heterosexual couple, adopted, or conceived through artificial insemination.
"The vast consensus of all the studies shows that children of same-sex parents do as well as children whose parents are heterosexual in every way," she tells WebMD. "In some ways children of same-sex parents actually may have advantages over other family structures."
Study Results
Researchers looked at information gleaned from 15 studies on more than 500 children, evaluating possible stigma, teasing and social isolation, adjustment and self-esteem, opposite gender role models, sexual orientation, and strengths.
Studies from 1981 to 1994, including 260 children reared by either heterosexual mothers or same-sex mothers after divorce, found no differences in intelligence, type or prevalence of psychiatric disorders, self-esteem, well-being, peer relationships, couple relationships, or parental stress.
"Some studies showed that single heterosexual parents' children have more difficulties than children who have parents of the same sex," Perrin says. "They did better in discipline, self-esteem, and had less psychosocial difficulties at home and at school."
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news/20051012/study-same-sex-parents-raise-well-adjusted-kids
|
|
Gene
Social climber
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
|
How do gay people have children??
They get their children from the same secular authority that now allows them to marry in California or through biological means.
g
EDIT: Norton, Read the judges opinion and ruling. Lots of evidence there.
g
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
|
How do same sex couples have children, blue asks:
Well, they can adopt.
Or if they happen to be a female couple, one can choose to get artifically
inseminated, or get pregnant from a chosen male sperm donor.
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
|
The same way infertile hetero couples have babies.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
CA
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
|
I could marry any hooker off the street tonight.
Which do YOU think would be a more stable marriage blurring?
You could, but would you? And why not?
The same way infertile hetero couples have babies.
So now it's considered 'normal' to say Johnny has 2 mommies or 2 daddies? That doesn't affect kids?
I think it does, but then, I'm a fag-hating homophobe. So, you more sensitive and tolerant people must be right.
Sorry for being so wrong! I'm so hateful.
|
|
Gene
Social climber
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
|
Bluey,
I like to discuss issues rather than personalities.
Have you read the decision? If not, please do. You will find lots of testimony that will answer many of your questions about Adam and Steve and Eve and Louise. Easy to find a downloadable .pdf.
Best,
Gene
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
CA
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
|
weschrist, when you marry that hooker, could you make sure you invite me to the wedding? I bet her bridesmaids will be a blast to party with!
weschrist
Aug 12, 2010 - 05:53pm PT
Just googled "Ignorant piece of shit" expecting a picture to represent blurring.
All I found was this video for "Ignorant piece of shit" by Carrisa's Weird... totally work save and very apres peau...
What I find equally troubling is the lack of criticism of their remarks from women or decency.
I've grown used to it though. "googled pice of sh#t and found BR???". Wow! Nice retro-trip to the 6th grade, Johnson!
You're oficially a dick in my book. Especially after congratulating DMT for calling my wife a dog. Nice.
There she is. Next time we meet I suggest you reaffirm that notion and see what she does, as#@&%e!
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
|
Wes, you got me curious so I also googled ignorant piece of sh#t and
then clicked on the images.
Right on the first page:
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
CA
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
|
I said, Doesn't mean I should marry my dog though.
And Mister Intelligence said, "I think you DID marry your dog.
DMT "
WTF???
|
|
Gene
Social climber
|
|
|
Aug 12, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
|
Lighten up friends. Talk about something other than individuals, please? You're adding nothing to the discussion. Flame the message, not the messenger. This isn't sixth grade.
Thanks,
Gene
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!