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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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I just took off for a couple hours from what I've been doing all week -- this -- and went to my daughter's improv performance. It was great! But I sat in the audience with tears in my eyes over this discussion. I'm overloaded and depressed here and the tech chatter in the questions and the what-ifs are getting louder.
I'm going for a hike in the redwoods and I'll see ya later.
At this point I think if someone bolted from the top to the bottom of this Dome....I dunno. It's hypothetical and pretty extreme. Even the question is a game, not a climb.
I've already told you what I would actually do, what I will do, myself personally, this summer. And I've always felt that doing -- not talking -- is the best inspiration. In that sense you've already got the route. Some of you query as if you want me to recant. But my hand was on the drill.
What I'm gonna do, then: I'll ramble along the base, look for lines, boulder out some openings. If it looks good, I'll start up and see if I can find a stance to get something in. And repeat. From the ground. And then I'l see what would unfold or come down. I'd think about the feel of how fine the moves were so far and back off to glass the wall above and load the pipe and wonder.
Then I'd probably make a beer run to the Valley while my thoughts settled and I began to hear the slow still voice from deeper inside whispering my true feeling. I'm a contemplative, not a hothead. I'm an artist, not a planner. While in the Valley I'd probably get distracted by hot chicks, good conversations, preferably both together. Then remember to bolt for the high country. (teehehe -- he said "bolt")
I'm not making this up and I'm not stalling and I'm not being cute. This is who I am. All the stuff you've read of mine and liked and that I like too and that I keep evolving came out slowly and trickled into notebooks by the side of a trail or "sitting on my pack on a snowy col" (my line). Point is it flowed out of feet on the ground -- grounded -- out of experience. It happened in little increments and it came about by inspiration. It damn sure didn't result from being posed some phony, overly-extreme ethical dilemma while sitting on my ass in front of a keyboard.
I'm going for a hike. If the rest of you guys are half as stale as I am: get up, stretch, go do something. The weekend's starting. I'll see you back here when I feel healthy enough to contribute.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Ben and Bob,
I agree - there will always be some people who complain about a route, no matter what. (I edited my post to include Ben's clarification).
Ben,
Did I put the lines in the right place on your photo? In Doug's article it sounded like it was a little confusing at first, figuring out what went where.
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wildone
climber
Where you want to be
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Absolutely, John. It's just a corollary of mine that it's a waste of time to answer "what-if's" because they will always exist.
I will always remember talking with you after a Yosemite Facelift at the deli. I was the guy who had lived on Laurel Canyon in Santa Barbara right off of foot hill near your house. I was driving Ken's truck that day, helping you and (was his name Bob?) carry in all that copper cable from above the cookie.
You are one of the great names in our sport that I've always looked up to, and have enjoyed all of your thoughtful comments during your tenure here on Supertopo.
Clint, you are exactly right. Man, the free climbing on "South Face" was/is incredible. We were getting pretty psyched on that line until it became definitly 5.14(?) and had to come down. If someone is ridiculously hard, and can figure out a way to get through the escape hatch up there, they will have one hell of a route.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Everybody can do it better once the FA is over. They would placed less bolts, more bolts, cleaned more, cleaned less, used a hook, not use a hook, use stainless over carbon bolts, ring anchors over links, run it more, run it out less, leave the dirt in, take the dirt out, removed the loose hold, leave the loose hold, use eb's, wear a swami, solo it and so forth."
C'mon - that's exactly the sort of obfusticating tripe which makes Fox News so successful - pretend there are no issues of substance or that there is no way to discuss those of issues from any substantive or valid perspective on either side. If it's all just noise, what are you posting for?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Joe wrote: C'mon - that's exactly the sort of obfusticating tripe which makes Fox News so successful - pretend there are no issues of substance or that there is no way to discuss those of issues from any substantive or valid perspective on either side. If it's all just noise, what are you posting for?
Joe...funny how you see only what you want...I'm posting because it is true and this thread proves it. Every thing I posted could be and is a issue to people after a FA is completed. Prove me wrong...which I know you can't.
I don't watch Fox!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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DR said, "At this point I think if someone bolted from the top to the bottom of this Dome....I dunno. It's hypothetical and pretty extreme. Even the question is a game, not a climb."
i guess i dont see the difference between your route and bolting all the way up....
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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You can't force an opinion on anyone... from either case. You can't convince the FA team they did something unethical just as they can't convince you otherwise. Not that it doesn't warrant discussion... but keep to reality. There is no "secret question" that you can ask either side to make them go "ah shoot, your right. I'm wrong."
Besides, we want this thread to continue, don't we? :D
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Kevin wrote: Here's a "secret question":
If other routes in the Valley and TM are rapbolted and generally accepted, even next to ground up established classics, why is this one 1000 posts different?
You might want to go to the first post to answer that one.
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WBraun
climber
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Doug R
Don't tax your brain over this stuff, it's not worth it. You've explained enough. Let the rest of em terrorize their brains over this, lol.
These guys here will go on forever in circles ......
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Knickers in a twist.
Hell, there are kids starving in China...
...or is that in the Appalachia?
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elcap-pics
climber
Crestline CA
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The real question is.... When will this thread die of exhaustion?!!
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Surely knott before reaching 1000 posts, no doubt...
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Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
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Why is this thread 750 posts long and the one about Moonlight Buttress being free soloed only 16 posts long?
Hmmmmm...
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Uhh - the Moonlight Buttress thread is 9 hours old, and is likely an April Fool's hoax.
This thread is 6 daze old, and many if knott most of the key players have posted.
Funny how that works...
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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DR wrote:
"If we left it for the future, then two possibilities: Either someone else would put it up as a death route, even further monopolizing this wall toward an elite minority, or emerging technology would shift the balance."
Why isn't it OK to have some faces and routes that are only climbable by the "elite minority?" If you want to climb those routes and faces either you sack up or you go home. Historically, the SFHD seemed to be one of those places.
Bruce
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BLD
Social climber
CA
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The style that is used to put up a first ascent sets the standard for that route not the whole wall.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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BLD wrote "The style that is used to put up a first ascent sets the standard for that route not the whole wall."
I don't think that is a universally held viewpoint. There are whole areas like Pinnacles National Monument(which at last count has over 900 routes) where the ethic is ground up. It's not just a wall it's an entire climbing area.
Bruce
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I feel that if a rout is such crap that it dosen't get repeted for 20 years that it is not a rout for the elite it is just a crap dangerous rout that nobody actually wants to climb. Even the elite don't want to climb it. There may be a few of the elite who WOULD LIKE TO HAVE climbed it but there obviously arn't any of them who would actually LIKE to climb it. ;)
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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I just finished the article after a busy day yesterday.
It's a really good article and the route sounds amazing too.
The article has some excellent history in it, and a lot of information about the arch pitches. There is some good writing about "the decision" as well, but not as much as you might think. There is much less information than I expected about the entire upper half though. I wonder why that is?
I am still very torn about this. But ultimately, that route is much bigger than my guns or my balls, so it's not for me to judge. I have very much enjoyed being in the conversation though. Thanks to everyone for making me think so hard about this. I sure hope to get back there and look at all that, maybe even participate in something. At least I can rap in and do some of the easier stuff.....ha!
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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prolly less writing abouting the upper half cause there is little to no adventure and placing lots of bolts on rappel when you know the route goes is like a high angle construction job.
what many people on here seem to forget about is that old style was minimum impact. the other routes up there attest to that. the fact that min impact correlates to few bolts on a slab may be contentious to some but it sure kept the adventure level high.
on the other side of the coin is what i call the smith rock syndrome where the place is more like and outdoor gym. i may like it but there should be osme places that dont turn out that way. and once a wall ha a route like that, why isnt it fair for anyone else to add their gym route to it?
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