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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 12, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
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From WiKi
The Extended Phenotype[edit]
Main article: The Extended Phenotype
The idea of the phenotype has been generalized by Richard Dawkins in The Extended Phenotype to mean all the effects a gene has on the outside world that may influence its chances of being replicated. These can be effects on the organism in which the gene resides, the environment, or other organisms.
For instance, a beaver dam might be considered a phenotype of beaver genes, the same way beavers' powerful incisor teeth are phenotype expressions of their genes. Dawkins also cites the effect of an organism on the behaviour of another organism (such as the devoted nurturing of a cuckoo by a parent of a different species) as an example of the extended phenotype.
The smallest unit of replicators is the gene. Replicators cannot be directly selected upon, but they are selected on by their phenotypic effects. These effects are packaged together in organisms. We should think of the replicator as having extended phenotypic effects. These are all of the ways it affects the world, not just the effects the replicators have on the body in which they reside
phenotypic effects.
The "meaty' Cell does this??
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 12, 2014 - 09:30pm PT
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all the effects a gene has on the outside world that may influence its chances of being replicated. These can be effects on the organism in which the gene resides, the environment, or other organisms.
What? Is this a news-flash to anyone else???
A Cell has awareness to not only itself inside its organism, but also of that organism inside of its environment, along with other separate organism's containing cell's whithin that environment.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 12, 2014 - 09:43pm PT
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Anyone?
Well gotta go. There's a great series entitled "Take a deep breathe" on CCTV.
Tonight concerns the picking of the Chinese Catipiller Fungus.
Catapiller Fungus has Behavior. It sure ain't a Daisy!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 12, 2014 - 09:50pm PT
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has any one person ever filled up one entire page on a certain topic?
That would surely piss The Fish off!?
But its not Behavior that would matter to Evolution, or Mother Nature.
She could care less!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 13, 2014 - 01:25am PT
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Said Da Moose: "God hasn't spoken to me, yet(?)."
It would be interesting to find out:
A), what people have in mind what this means? Are they expecting - or laughing at the idea of "God" speaking at all - God to rap to them, or speak "the French," OR what, exactly? IOWs, is this really an honest inquiry? How might anyone approach the question sans the right answer in their head. (open mindedly)
and B), Are they expecting God, if "he" is "real," to perforce show up as any other material "thing" in the universe, by which we might weight, measure, compute and so on.
And as a thought, if we cannot weigh, measure, and compute "God," then by what criteria could we ever consider "him" real?
What this line of argumentation points out clearly is that the supposition supplied by jughead level materialism, whereby "real" and material are the same "things." In other words, lest "God" shows his own self in a way available to our sense data machinery, he cannot be "real" in any real way. He is merely "imagined."
The POV furnishes the belief that reality - all and everything - is either material (real) or imagined.
This can be tracked back to where it is absurd, but right now I'm in Switzerland recovering from a kick-ass Bryan Adams concert last night. Unbelievable rock and roll. And I'm old.
JL
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Dec 13, 2014 - 03:17am PT
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Blueblocr mentions the Chinese (and Tibetan and Nepalese) caterpillar fungus and I have a story about that illustrating how one can come to doubt their preconceived notions and appreciate indigenous knowledge.
When I lived in a Sherpa village at 12,000 feet on the Nepalese side of the Himalayas, I was collecting medicinal plants and information about them.Eventually I was told about one that was a "kind of vitamin for old men". It was a half plant, half animal worm which they collected after the monsoon when it had a long piece of grass growing out of its head like a horn.
"Impossible I said, in my country we know that there are plants and animals but no creatures that are half and half and unicorns do not exist". Their reply was, "we'll bring you one and then you will see, your science doesn't know everything".
Sure enough, they produced a dried up caterillar with two long strands of what looked like intertwined grass growing out of its head looking for all the world like a miniature unicorn. When I got back to Kathmandu and looked it up, it was of course Cordyceps sinensis which is deceptively called an herb by the Chinese when in fact it's mostly dead caterpiller, ingested by athletes all over the world now.
I had a similar experience poo pooing a deer with fangs like a dog ("carnivores are carnivores and herbivores have different teeth")until I saw my first Himalayan musk deer. I learned not to say that in my country we knew better than the locals. Of course there is a scientific explanation for all this once encountered by the West but there's a whole lot out there we don't yet know about. Humility is called for.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Dec 13, 2014 - 03:52am PT
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NO the moose and I have not spoken yet but we are often on the same wave length.
He is not the fool that I pretend to be and so tugs at the cords he finds here. Not using adverbs or adjectives, you all suck ...Me too.....start there .... then add that the life force/spirit that resides and gets hurt and leaves our bodies is .... if it was not? ... then what is the change from living to not?.
098765432101234567890 but if the swell is right? if it swells ride it ...the swells are right ..??
locals only... left foot is goofy.... left swells three bells?.
I have nothing more to say now that I have checked in to find the
Half Xtra special delivery of Jan
that precedes this post.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 13, 2014 - 07:20am PT
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I haven't been on this thread for awhile so it was interesting to read back a ways.
Tvash said: "Good" or "Bad" is a religious concept - necessary to maintain the "Us" versus "Them" paradigm."
It's natural to consider that these subjective terms have no "real' or objective meaning but when viewed or experienced in certain contexts, it hard to argue, for example, that "bad" isn't objective.
For instance, in the context of being a human being, "bad" would be hard to quantify if we were talking about a rock and roll concert. It would likely be "just opinion." However when we move onto a physical context, no one who has ever lived or ever will live would consider a room temperature of absolute zero to be anything but bad, likewise chasing beer with sulphuric acid. Bad in this context is likely not all that "spiritual," and makes a case for a provisional materialism.
JL
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Dec 13, 2014 - 07:37am PT
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Largo- It depends on which side of the door to the cold room you're standing on and who is inside. If you are standing inside, then I don't think you'd be doing any kind of thinking, since all your atoms are at rest..
Similarly, what molarity of H2SO4 are we talking about? I think Coca Cola has a pH of 2.5 due largely to citric & phosphoric acid content.
Beware of absolute statements; they can all be twisted around in context. Well documented on this forum.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 13, 2014 - 07:47am PT
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Beware of absolute statements; they can all be twisted around in context
Absolute statements can never ever be twisted around.
Otherwise it's not an absolute statement.
Moosedrool judges his own self and always operates in the mode of goodness.
You must very very highly enlightened, god like.
Me .... I most likely always fall down into the mode of ignorance ....
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 13, 2014 - 10:45am PT
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Moose: People believe in this story. Do you?
When I asked whether you would entertain a metaphor or narrative, I was trying (not very well) to get at the idea of truth. For most, there seems to be an objective truth that can be proved unequivocally. I’d say (and I think Paul and Jan could chime in here as well) that there is also subjective truth; and I’ll say that there are other kinds of truth that are even different than objective and subjective truths (e.g., the truth of an archetype). What about the truth of a poem? Or the truth of the love of a mother? Or the truth of a narrative? When we watch “It’s a wonderful Life” with Jimmy Stewart, we don’t say that what the screen portrays is what happened, but we say that the story presents a truth to us universally. That’s why some stories have such long lives. There is a resonance there that folks hear or see in them. Romance, tragedy, comedy, and irony are all universal fabulas across the planet.
I read the story you posted about Ganesha, and I thought that I could see a truth in the story that could hardly be doubted, but I couldn’t readily put it into words. I couldn’t articulate what the truth of it is, but I sense it. Is that woo? If it’s not intergalactic or quantum mechanical, then is it false? Surely someone could come up with a brilliant interpretation of the story, and many of us could nod our heads in agreement. “Yeah, life is / is not just like that.”
If it happens in your consciousness, then it’s as real as anything could possibly be. Even illusion and delusion are real. To contradict my declaration will require bringing out measuring sticks. That very wont indicates what’s wrong with pure scientific views of reality.
“If you can’t measure it, you don’t know what you’re talking about.” I respect that principle, and I teach it in all business classes . . . but it is an incomplete idea that cannot inform anyone about purpose, intention, being, morality / ethics, meaning and many other things. If any of those things are important, than a wider and more inclusive view is needed—views that go beyond what appear to be logical, rational, empirical, or conceptual.
Again, thanks for posting the story.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 13, 2014 - 02:06pm PT
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Chasing a beer with sulphuric acid is neither good nor bad, just unhealthy. A person with terminal cancer and chronic pain might consider such a meal a good thing. Giving such a meal to a serial killer might be considered a good thing by survivors of victims. Good or bad?
A break up might feel bad until one falls in love again, when it magically turns out to have been a good thing. Good or bad?
So there really is no objective good or bad - that's all hairless monkey subjectivity. And things are what you make of them. Most of 'good' or 'bad' in our yuppy world is how people react to things that just happen. Happier people are such because they whatever comes along positively and learn from them, while troubled people see the world negatively and react accordingly with negative emotions and actions.
A guy up here took a very bad, injurious fall this summer in the Rockies. Hit by a rock. Good or bad? Well - it almost killed him - but didn't. He was in danger of losing a finger - but didn't. He can now safely say that if he can overcome this, he can probably overcome anything else that comes a long. He might have learned a thing or two which will prevent a fatal accident later one. He meets a cute nurse in the hospital and they hit it off (OK, that part's fictional) - good or bad?
As for rock concerts - I don't happen to like big crowds. Good or bad?
Hmmm....
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Dec 13, 2014 - 03:02pm PT
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Nietzsche covered a lot of this ground.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 13, 2014 - 03:35pm PT
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"Context" is he key word, Tvash. In the context of a normal human being interested in remaining healthy, we can say absolutely that chasing beer with killer acid is bad. Moving OUT of the material realm, judging a rock concert good or bad is a personal (subjective) call.
It's interesting to see how our minds always want to conjure up a stand-alone object, or "objective" truths that seemingly exist all by themselves. But of course nothing exists all by itself. It's all in play.
In the context of measuring or per material things, "if you can't measure it, you don't know what you are talking about " makes perfect sense because we need some thing to measure. So you can see how we quickly loop back to the question of whether or not reality is comprised of things and only things. Or what Ed asked so long ago: "What isn't physical?'
JL
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 13, 2014 - 06:00pm PT
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Largo: It's all in play.
Yeah, . . . I like that phrase used here.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 13, 2014 - 06:07pm PT
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me two!!
BB
Glad to see you back, Linguistic Largo!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 13, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
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Good or bad?
Now this makes solid sense: if a lion eats both my kids that's not necessarily bad cause the lion was hungry and he's happy now and my kids may have grown up to be child molesters or killers and there's only our subjective, relative world anyway!
A brilliant, if not to say athletic, philosophical approach that I'm sure will lead us all directly to utopian stasis.
Congrats!
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Dec 13, 2014 - 06:32pm PT
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chasing beer with killer acid is bad.
Did that at The Dead in Ventura mid '80s. Was pretty awesome; not bad for me.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 13, 2014 - 06:40pm PT
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Haha. Yes, most of our troubles here ARE linguistic. We identify the word-map too narrowly with the reality-territory.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 13, 2014 - 07:27pm PT
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If a lion eats your kids its good for the lion. Good for the planet at large, too. There are probably some Youtubers who wouldn't be complaining.
Subjective human construct. Always. There can be no absolute good or bad - the concept doesnt' exist without a specific human point of view.
Rock concerts put enormous amounts of greenhouse gases into atmosphere. They also siphon huge amounts of disposable income that could otherwise feed the hungry, etc.
Good or bad?
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