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John M
climber
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yes.. drought is part of the norm of california.. but climate change folks are speaking about something much larger. A change in the over all pattern of the world. Not just the west coast of
America. In the initial stages, climate change will look just like a part of a normal pattern of historical drought on the West coast.
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On that note, neither of you two sound much different. One is mocking, one is derisive. Its pretty hard for any of you to claim the high road.
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John M
climber
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of course change has occurred. The difference is in the reason. Speculation about large volcano eruption, meteor strikes, a change in the tilt of the axis of the earth have all been attributed to climate change. But these things haven't happened recently. Which is why scientist have looked at human causes for the increase in greenhouse gasses. Just because it has happened before doesn't mean the reasons are the same. And if we are part of the cause, then the question becomes what can we do about. I have a more spiritual based belief on climate change, but this forum isn't a good place to share that kind of thing.
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John M
climber
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Its unlikely scientific articles have been titled that way, at least those actually written by scientists. But its fairly common knowledge that the media likes to sensationalize things and so I'm certain that there are media produced articles which use such verbiage. But the follow up explanations by the researchers is rarely widely printed.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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In full agreement with the above post.
Too many chiefs ruin the pow wow.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Chief,
I think we can find common ground on the concept that there are too many people for reasonable sustainability. That has implications locally, state-side, nationally, internationally.
I think also that there are solutions to the very real problems we find ourselves in, as well. They don't solve overpopulation, but they mitigate the effects to a degree, while we look for solutions for the longer haul.
by the way, those longer haul solutions may have already kicked in: the level of voluntary fertility has plummeted, at state, national, and international levels....DRAMATICALLY so.
But, did nature cause our population to rise so dramatically in the first place? NO. This was due to understanding of sanitation, the industrial revolution, the green revolution. NOT nature, but human activities.
And how has our fertility been throttled back so much in the last 30 years? Was that NATURE having it's way? NO! It was through the advent of the availability of birth control, and widespread education of women. Those were HUMAN activities.
Nature has few tools to control population. Generally massive die-offs from disease, or from lack of resources to support the population. Have we seen those patterns in most of the world? NO. Nature is not the cause of slowing of population growth.
In 1963, the average number of babies/woman in the world was 5. Today, it is 2.5. That was NOT NATURE.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nature didn't do this:
When The Carter Center began leading the international campaign to eradicate Guinea worm disease in 1986, there were an estimated 3.5 million cases in 21 countries in Africa and Asia. Today, that number has been reduced by more than 99.9 percent, with the vast majority of cases remaining in South Sudan.
In 2013, 148 cases of Guinea worm disease were reported worldwide, the vast majority in South Sudan.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Written over the urinal in the Paiute Palace..." Too many Chief , not enough indians...".
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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So bad it's still a $54/month flat fee!
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Agreed. And your "HUMAN" science of modern bio medicine is doing all it can to remedy and eradicate the natural system of all those few tools in order to prolong HUMAN life.
Perhaps you can educate me: What, exactly, do you think your primitive medicine man is attempting to accomplish? What, exactly, are you yourself attempting to accomplish every time you access the medical system or take a pill, or take a vitamin?
What, exactly, is an animal clan attempting to accomplish, when it moves from an area of scarcity, to an area of abundance?
It seems to me that you buy into the concept that HUMANS are not a part of nature.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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^^^ rad
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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The concept of dams keep seems to come up, in the press and elsewhere.
The DUMBEST idea possible.
We have water storage devices---aquifers---that have so much capacity, it is nearly beyond belief. The water stored in these devices need no treatment, does not evaporate, does not get contaminated.
We DO NOT NEED additional water storage.
On top of which, all the good sites are TAKEN. Any dam would be sited in a sub-optimal place.
What I fear is the building of a dam being done as an excuse for a jobs program. Inexcusable. A theft of money from those who need it.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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DMT, very little, if any of the water stored in San Luis Reservoir is used for Los Angeles.
Its virtually all for farming.
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10b4me
climber
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The concept of dams keep seems to come up, in the press and elsewhere.
The DUMBEST idea possible.
We have water storage devices---aquifers---that have so much capacity, it is nearly beyond belief. The water stored in these devices need no treatment, does not evaporate, does not get contaminated.
We DO NOT NEED additional water storage.
On top of which, all the good sites are TAKEN. Any dam would be sited in a sub-optimal place.
What I fear is the building of a dam being done as an excuse for a jobs program. Inexcusable. A theft of money from those who need it.
Unfortunately, Jerry Brown wants more dams. What a dumbass.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Politicians are not water engineers. They respond to what constituents tell them. They are being told that if only we had more dams, we would not be in this situation.
So.....
He needs to be educated.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Even William Mulholland was a strong advocate of using aquifers to store water. Less loss to evaporation and less saline warer as a result.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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DMT.....unlike Jerry's Bullet Train I did hear a logical argument for the tunnel project that I'll describe. I'm not saying I support it but thought I should share the rationale behind the project which I had never heard about or read until recently.
The planet is in fact warming and sea levels are rising. This is causing the salinity line in the Delta to move further inland to the East. This change is being amplified by the reduction of fresh water entering the Delta from the rivers of California's central valley's due to the drought.
The California Aquaduct draws it's water from a forebay on the South side of the Delta. The salinity line as it moves East will at some point cut off fresh water reaching the forebay. This project is basically a similar concept to the old peripheral canal idea. It's a way to by-pass the Delta due to climate change in order to ensure fresh water delivery to the San Joaquin Valley for it's agriculture and Southern California for its domestic water uses.
Jerry Brown see's himself as the infrastructure governor similar to his father who was the champion of the California Aquaduct. Like you I am not optimistic that this improvement on that system will be curtailed. The stakes are too high for Southern California where the states political muscle is strongest. Forgive the pun but the High Speed Rail Project stands a better chance of being derailed, like I said no one likes the idea. I agree with you the initiative process in California is a bad way to govern. I think if it were brought back to the voters it wouldn't stand a chance.
Charlie D.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Isn't that the whole idea behind the entire state water system; Deliver water to the people who need it?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sure Chaz, but maybe you can define "need" for us.
Does a corporate mega farm NEED our water? Sure. Should they get it? And should they get it at rates below what a private person, who is not using that public good for a profit, pays?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jan 15, 2015 - 04:15pm PT
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I like Gleick.^^^^
Good to know about the "water year" and invalid comparisons that mislead.
Thanks, Malemute.
End of February, 2014. It looked good, but...
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