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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 12, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
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Fruity - When I asked how meditation itself had a material basis, you're answer requires a thought process hooked to a belief that you can reverse engineer back to a material brain you believe creates consciousness and makes meditation possible. This thought process is not meditation.
What's more, when "meditation with goals or objectives" is not meditation but focused thinking, ergo ego driven, since your ego has determined or decided upon the agenda per what you'll think or contemplate. Of course it's impossible to ever transcend your ego doing so - we can easily see why.
When yo let go of your attachment to thoughts, with getting to or maintaining a state, a place, an idea, and when you don't concentrate, moving toward or away from whatever arises - try and find your "material base." It's just another shimmering piece of qualia in your field or awareness, and that field is itself ungraspable, as is the agency who is present with it.
Note how hard it is to just abide with this without the discursive mind trying to horn in theories and ideas - especially the idea that you are wasting your time unless the discursive mind is engaged in grinding on some thing or idea. Not easy IME.
Those questions about Sam Harris are interesting and deserve serious responses and I have to work now. I hope to get to those later.
JL
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Oct 12, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
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Timid TopRope +1
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What matters is consciousness and its contents. Consciousness is everything.
No, I'd say that's a low-leveled but highly understandable view. As a teacher, I can report that what people first learn must at some point be jettisoned in order to move forward. Ken Wilber has the idea down cold. First, differentiate: see differences and similarities in things. Learn to discriminate one thing from another. Then integrate them into a whole by creating categories: see and link differences through patterns and structures. Finally, transcend: Move to the next wider, deeper, higher more inclusive system. Transcending is where one broad view must be replaced with another system altogether. Then the process starts all over again. Differentiate--integrate--transcend. Hegel's ideas about thesis--antithesis--new thesis is similar in ilk. Cognitive science has made somewhat analogous discriminations when it talks about the differences between naive knowledge structures versus a novice's knowledge structures versus the knowledge structures of experts.
Consciousness (and its contents) are very interesting and a great place to start (observationally through meditation) but it is probably a novice's view of existence to think that it is all there is. Consciousness is undeniably apparent to everyone, but there seem (according to the taproot / leading-edge beings historically) to be non-conceptual states of being that transcend what is immensely obvious. We are surely advanced, but we cannot be at the end of the line.
When I lose consciousness or my consciousness shifts (drugs, illness, etc.), "I" do not go away, become another self, or return as another self. I may feel like sh*t or changed today--my consciousness seems greatly affected by pain, narcotic haze, physical ailments--but "I" am still here. Only by getting beyond my own conceptualizations can I seem to make ANY Real Changes to that object that always seems to be around: my ego, the "I." All beliefs are the enemy.
At some point, it seems a person must pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and transcend themselves. They must kill their own ego. It's a paradox that's been portrayed in almost endless mythology and evolutionary tale. All are metaphors.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Oct 12, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
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I never understood Atheist preachers.
More annoying than liberals.
And people who are Atheist just because they're liberal.
I hate people.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 12, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
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"Life" never comes to an end.
 Was trying to read the entire page… read most but got to here and nearly died laughing….
Now, is this part of your imagination? Or is there any evidence to base this on?
Bwahahaha
(To be sure, this is just more evidence that religion is man made and therefore not worthy of my belief)
Thanks Jaybro, very real video. Alex hits the bullseye
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 12, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
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It's it kind of hard to argue that there isn't a material basis for meditation, When you're doing it in a human body?
I wasn't talking ab out arguing or discursive reasoning. We can argue most anything. I meant, when you sit your ass down and settle, what is your immediate, right-now, experiential relationship to material? I'm not saying we don't have one, but what is it? And who or what is relating to that "material base," and do you experience that which relates and the base itself as selfsame?
As strictly discursive ideas, these questions sound nonsensical, but if you can muster the discipline to to hang with the process long enough to let the monkey mind settle, such questions are very interesting for some - but not everyone. Many people get mildly crazy without a task or a bone for the discursive mind to chew on, and the rants start in about staring at your navel and so on LOL.
JL
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Oct 12, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
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MikeL
"Differentiate-Integrate-transcend"
These activities could probably be carried out by the mind and the brain.
I would ration that between Intregrate-Transcend you could insert "moralize" ?
As a judge to direct where to integrate. As to which direction to transcend.
"All belief's are our enemy" Aren't our beliefs our truths?
"I believe it's going to be sunny in JTree today!". I'm giving you my honest truthful opinion of fact based on integrated data and experience. When we say we "believe" something we have a need to be sure that something be true. Enough so as to stake our honor by putting our name on it. And our trust in it. As to esteem our I. "Ego".
Maybe at the point right before he grabs his bootstraps. A man finds his ego deflated by his material being. Maybe to the point of a meditated conscience? So much as to question his own beliefs. Thus descending through his Differentiate-Integrate pattern without bias. In order to Transcend.
Or:
What if your bootstraps are pulled all the way up! And your material cup is full! And you've been able to deduce the truths in your life.. So you earnestly seek what you can't see. Then you look at the Myths, metaphors and parables to fill a cup. In which I may clink my material cup to. And let out a wopping "CHEERS!"
Jus Quess'in
BB
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 12, 2012 - 07:02pm PT
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I'm feeling in an an ornery mood and feel the need to come to the defense of HFCS. The thing about describing the atheistic point of view is that all of the really smart people (who are atheists) converge on the same viewpoint. It's not just Sam Harris. Read two pages from any of the books by Steven Pinker, Richard Dawkins, or Daniel Dennet and you can't help but learn something about the world that you probably really never thought of before. These are some of the smartest guys on the planet (along with Ed Hartouni), in my opinion.
Now think of the "great" theistic thinkers. Do they collectively converge on a world view? I think not. I also think of all of the stuff that I have read of Largo's on this and similar subjects. Do I learn anything? No. Just a bunch of meaningless jargon and questionable logic. Sorry, Largo. You're a hero of mine, but I've got to call a spade a spade. Honestly, what may have put me over the edge was your fruity insult to HFCS, a clearly rationale person.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 12, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
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I'm feeling in an an ornery mood and feel the need to come to the defense of HFCS. The thing about describing the atheistic point of view is that all of the really smart people (who are atheists) converge on the same viewpoint. It's not just Sam Harris. Read two pages from any of the books by Steven Pinker, Richard Dawkins, or Daniel Dennet and you can't help but learn something about the world that you probably really never thought of before. These are some of the smartest guys on the planet (along with Ed Hartouni), in my opinion.
In re-reading this, I realized that I should be more clear about what I mean. What I meant to say is that when you read any of the 4 authors mentioned, you will learn new things about the world that are not only interesting (smart people like to think and talk about interesting things), but collectively consistent with our everyday sensibilities about the world. C'mon, the world is infinitely interesting and there are an infinite number of interesting things to know about and creative things to do in the world.
The theistic (including the "ghost in the machine viewpoint" of Largo's) starts with a (painfully) simplistic piece of inductive reasoning (that God or a universal consciousness exists and all of the other related crap which is largely dependent on where you were born) and tries to fit this hypothesis with all of the other facts from everyday life. To me, the most interesting phenomenon is the fact that smart people choose to suspend the instincts that have served them so well in their everyday lives and believe in the magical things required of their religious belief.
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Phantom X
Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
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Oct 12, 2012 - 09:32pm PT
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^^^^^^This one will definitly end up at the hot place!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Oct 12, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
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eeyonkee, there he is, cheering for the underdogs!
Thanks for doing your part, in the spirit of Weeg, to help keep things rowdy, stirred up, some!
.....
P.S.
This "Fruity" is merely just an affectionate nickname is all - designating me since I'm chock-full of fructose - fruit sugar - used on these "debate" threads. No harm, no foul, really!
Good to see you're a Pinker and Dennett fan, too, in addition to the others. New post by Harris, just today:
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven
One neuroscience guy taking a neurosurgeon guy (who's about to make a ton of money; selling out on his science edu? you make the call) to the cleaners. It would be dramatic, really, if it weren't so damn frequent. The world we live in!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 12, 2012 - 10:03pm PT
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Largo never said anything about a ghost in a/the machine.
You ever see a ghost driving a car or walking around in a coat?
Nope there's a live living entity driving the car and operating the machine (body).
There's a live living entity wearing the coat. (Body)
And you claim you and these guys are the most intelligent making stupid claims that ghosts are operating in our machines (bodies).
Not very intelligent making up sh!t about ghosts.
Life comes from life ......
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 12, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
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I know what you're getting at, Largo. I just don't know that attempting to describe it verbally is the thing. Kind of like trying to write a symphonic score in words. I take the Taoist suggestion,"The way that can be known, is not the way" to mean you have to do it, not talk about, or analyze it.
I spend a lot of solitary time in the desert, and other places. I can just, be. I can lose sense of self. I think what that is, is beyond the scope of expounding on the internets. And is only experienced first hand. Sort of like the parable of the cave, or like they said in the Rocky Horror show-" don't dream it, be it"
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Phantom X
Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
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Oct 12, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
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I'm betting Largo could pummel eeyonkee early in the first round. I'm not suggesting this though as I abhor violence. Mt. Woodson would be a great place to hold this holy event.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Oct 12, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
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By the way, Largo and Timid's perspective re: "meditation" is (way) too narrow or restrictive as there are many species of meditation; in fact many concern a goal or objective or desired result. Either from within or without. Otherwise why meditate at all, what would be the purpose.
But never mind - or no mind - for now. :)
.....
Giegs,
I can certainly appreciate the attitude or perspective you expressed.
.....
btw, this is weird...
the droste effect
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 12, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
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Screwy thing is to be accused of not getting or not thoroughly grasping a bottom-up materialist, antecedent forward causal take on reality. I can recite those positions and can virtually assure you of the next words and the next argument that will come out of Craig's mouth. What, exactly, is there to "miss" on how a materialist views the world. What is not clear? Dorks toss off glib rants like "a (painfully) simplistic piece of inductive reasoning" - not realizing that reasoning is not the entire game. Not even close.
Recently I have introduced the idea that self and experience are both "ungraspable." I couldn't have said this any clearer. And yet people come back with the fantastically screwy notions that I'm a theist preaching about ghosts in the machine and that I have a "belief" about "God" and am artificially constructing a contrived universe around this notion.
Fact is, ghosts and "God" are things people have ideas about, have pictures drawn from old time religion. But what I said was that experience and presence is ungraspable, not that there is a non-thing called a ghost, or an entity called God, that abides in us but dodges science somehow.
And Fruity: You said: Either from within or without. Otherwise why meditate at all, what would be the purpose.
The entire point is to get in there and discover the purpose directly. You're trying to reckon reality before you ever go there. You can't let go of thinking for even 20 minutes.
JL
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 12, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
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Yesterday while on a run I had a moment of meditation - most of my meditating is spontaneous and I don't always come away with some grand idea, sometimes just the act of diving into my head and my thoughts seems like the thing to do. I fall into the habit of surpressing thoughts and compartmentalizing my feelings (often a trick that people who aren't really spiritual use to blindly follow the religion their parents shat on them) so its nice to allow free thought, if only for fleeting moments.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Oct 13, 2012 - 12:36am PT
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re: meditation
A couple of points (beating a dead horse, perhaps)...
(1) meditate < meditare goes way back to ancient Latin (further than Late Latin) to mean... to reckon, contemplate, reflect or think - it's that basic (yeah, kind of like the words "spirit" or "faith" too)
(2) I found it interesting just now that wiki...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation
not only (a) describes "meditation" as a normative practice (meaning oriented toward a benefit (or goal)) but (b) actually cites "goal" in its opening sentence.
So there! :)
Here it is: "Meditation is a practice in which an individual trains the mind and/or induces a mode of consciousness to realize some benefit,[1] although it can be argued meditation is a goal in and of itself."
Or, as an alternative, how about... induces - in lieu of "a mode of consciousness" - an attitude? or a change of attitude?
Good night, all, thanks for the intellectual / spiritual stimulation, appreciate it!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 13, 2012 - 12:48am PT
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Here it is: "Meditation is a practice in which an individual trains the mind and/or induces a mode of consciousness to realize some benefit,[1] although it can be argued meditation is a goal in and of itself."
--
That's the beginning stuff. You anchor your mind onto your breath, or hitch it to a mantra. The problem with "training or inducing" is that this effort to control the mind is directed from the discursive mind or ego, in subtle ways that will make sure you never get past it. It is, in essence, trying to make meditation another cognitive exercise.
JL
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