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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 15, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
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It'll still be "protected" land. Just a reclassification, really. No biggy.
Yes, a lot like being a little pregnant. Pretty much what developers always say. For practical purposes, they'll own a strip of land through the park, with impacts to both sides. If nothing else, vegetation removal, traffic, parking, noise, and possibly lights, and maybe other things.
One of you should ask the developers whether they attempted to presell the project to established tourism operators, and if so, what the result was and why.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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May 15, 2012 - 06:08pm PT
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Isn't that similar to the scrubbing debate though? The pregnancy stuff? I mean, you scrub a route a little and it might go unnoticed; scrub a route in earnest at the base of the slabs and everyone sees it. No matter how you slice it, they're both having babies.
Not to worry M.H., I'm not implying you scrub routes, just trying to understand this pregnancy stuff of yours.
It's not as if Parks is selling them the land for the easement; not sure it's too fair to start appraising something for easement purposes.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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May 15, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
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O.K., well that's very fair and makes a tonne of sense, although a touch on the ironic side. I think G.F. and M.H. have hit a slight fork in the gravel road, or, parking lot.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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May 15, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
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I suppose that's a good question. I still don't quite understand why M.H. doesn't ask it along with all his others.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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May 15, 2012 - 07:37pm PT
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We need to remember that Parks isn't finished with them yet. For all we know, they'll be the ones negotiating a few goodies.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 15, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
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Almost 1,100 posts later, here we go again...
The principle, or if you like ideology, is simple. Land shouldn't be removed from Class A provincial parks, contrary to their master plans, except in extraordinary circumstances. Public safety and trivial adjustments perhaps excepted. That goes all the more for a park:
a) That was only made a park 15+ years ago, after considerable public study and debate,
b) Is already heavily used,
c) Is highly visible, and
d) Has national if not international stature.
If such things are even to be considered, it should only be after rigorous public scrutiny, involving all those interested.
If you believe everything the developers and their supporters say, there'd be no impacts beyond the visual ones. The likelihood seems small. Tree removal, parking, crowding, traffic, noise, fumes, lights, visibility, upper and lower station, wildlife, are all likely to create impacts. Pretty simple - they say they'll squeeze the operation, and (allegedly) tens of thousands more people into the area. There'll be impacts.
Your ideology seems to be that everywhere should be open to development, even in parks protected by law, and that there need not be an inclusive, independent process for reviewing such proposals. We disagree - but then, I helped the park come into being. Different perspectives.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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May 15, 2012 - 07:55pm PT
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"They'll be impacts." Very true. That's what happens when you build a billion dollar autobahn up the sound...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 15, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
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Isn't it supposed to be the Be Cheap Mountaineering Club? Anyway, I'm not the right person to ask, bearing in mind the famous adage about clubs.
It's strange how many "locals" say the Chief and its climbing are world class. Not my call, but it does seem odd that boosters on one hand say the thing is world class, and then say what should happen is a local matter.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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May 16, 2012 - 11:23am PT
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I think climbers, as a group, are acting a little selfish. Take the Park as one big playground for a minute. Us climbers have full use/control over the entire front side, the slabs, the north walls, the squaw, and even some slabs over at shannon falls area. Not to mention the backside of the chief crags.
When a developer wanted to run a lift up the chief a big fuss was made and the project was shut down. Now the powers that be seemed to have worked out a compromise where the lift won't interfere with the climbers, yet some are still disgruntled.
Considering the gondola will travel over an area without any climbs, or for that matter, an area with barely any access, surely the climbers can adapt.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 16, 2012 - 11:30am PT
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Considering the gondola will travel over an area without any climbs, or for that matter, an area with barely any access, surely the climbers can adapt.
More accurately, it will travel over an area without any climbs yet.
So I would adapt by filling my pack with scrub brushes, ropes, aiders, gri-gri, and jugs, and rectifying that lack of climbs.
Edit to add: Of course I would be carrying that pack up to the top via the gondola.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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May 16, 2012 - 11:54am PT
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I agree, there are several potential climbs to be done up on those creekside cliffs. I can see the route names now... In The Line Of Fire, Under The Microscope, Lightweights Overhead, Industrial Disease, Special Kay, Don't Drop Your i-phone On Us, Git Outta Our Sandbox, Mighty Hikers Meet Mountain Bikers,...
Yup, at least eight good lines up there.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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May 16, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
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I wonder how this proposal would impact Oelsen creek itself? seeing as it is the water source for the campground. Especially if there is going to be people pooing up there. We still haven't heard what they are going to do with the poo & other wastewater.
A lot of unanswered questions still abound. An independent environmental assessment should be publicly available. Yes i have asked them myself, no reply.
Back to the point- it should not be up to us to prove all of these facts, it should be up to the developers, who are trying to use our land (not me as a climber, but all of us as citizens who allegedly "own" provincial parks by law, regardless if we live in Logan lake or Squamish does not matter) to answer all of our questions & prove to us that it is in the best interest of everyone. To be transparent with their plans. To cut down on the "could" & "potential" in their statements & plans. An important part of the process has been skipped & it's interesting how some people can't seem to identify this or just don't care.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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May 16, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
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Good points, RyanD. Remember, this is 2012, they won't be flushing the sewage down Shannon Falls.
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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May 16, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
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I think you should go on M.H., I like seeing that side of you too.
Actually, believe it or not I hiked around (clambered) the base of that feature a long time ago to look for new routes. I seem to remember a pretty cool looking face climb up a spine of some sort; it was really steep. That could be Spineless Gov't.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 16, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
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I hiked and scrambled up that entire buttress (if that's the word for it) about fifteen years ago. My memory is that there are dozens of small-to-medium-size crags scattered through the forest. Kind of like the Smoke Bluffs, but spread out vertically instead of horizontally.
I'd often looked at the Oleson Creek Wall from the backside of the Chief and wondered why no one had started anything on the bottom tier. Then in 1998 I went to work on a line pretty close to the main trail (not even as far as Wiretap). I think I'd dug out one pitch, but then I moved and never went back.
But one look at Wiretap should be enough to convince anyone about the potential over there.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 16, 2012 - 05:41pm PT
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A gondola on Goat Ridge would definitely spread things out horizontally, and would have many other advantages. It appears to be feasible.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 16, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
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Toothless Little Covenant?
Totally Lame Covenant?
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hamish f
Social climber
squamish
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May 16, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
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"Million Dollar Ridge" ; oh wait, that's a ski run in Whistler.
"Million Dollar Baby" ; oh wait, that's a movie.
"Million Dollar Profit" ; the amount of money TLC made knowingly flipping their land to a gondola project.
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Why do you think that people who come to the chief to hike a grouse grind snow free hike in May will want to ride a gondola to nowhere? They only ride the grouse one to get down and they only do that when the grind is open. 
Let us know!