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The cad
climber
Does it matter, really?!?
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Jan 25, 2012 - 11:37am PT
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Claude Gardien wrote:
Let’s imagine for a second that Maestri hadn’t bolted the ridge. The first ascent would have been done in 2012.
I think that this assertion is quite questionable.
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enzolino
climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
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Jan 25, 2012 - 11:38am PT
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@New Age II
@ ROLO ...
Listen to the words of David Lama? He is busy looking for consensus ...
Give me one hour and I'll translate it in english ... bye ...
¿Tienes una opinión sobre lo que hicieron Jason Kruk y Hyden Kennedy?
Ellos escalaron la ruta sin utilizar los clavos, eso estuvo muy bien, ese es su propio estilo y está muy bien, pero lo que hicieron cuando descendían, sacar los clavos, no fue algo muy inteligente. Creo que ellos no tenían el derecho de hacerlo, esa es mi opinión.
¿Qué piensas sobre la discusión que se desató por el tema de los clavos de Maestri, si está bien utilizarlos o no para llegar a la cumbre, si es justo utilizar cualquier medio con tal de lograr el objetivo?
Me parece que la cuestión es más sobre destruir o no destruir. Porque en mi opinión, el primer ascenso, en este caso el de Maestri, de alguna forma él tenía derecho a hacer en la montaña casi lo que él quisiera, pero al mismo tiempo él debería haber hecho su mejor esfuerzo. Si agregas bolts o los sacas, esas dos cosas son como destruir la ruta, es destruir lo que otra persona ha hecho y nadie te da el derecho. No creo que el eje del tema sea cuáles son tus habilidades, si sos capaz de escalar con o sin los bolts, si no que estaban ahí, entonces ¿quién te da el derecho a sacarlos o poner otros si no puedes escalarla?
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Kinobi
climber
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Jan 25, 2012 - 11:41am PT
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Guys...
I have been working very hard these days, and I can't read all the posts (together with the junk) that appeared here.
BUT...
I see loads of criticism to Maestri. But most misses the points that we are talking about 2 kids that erased somebody's else route... not about Maestri.
Anyway...
I had the pleasure to be translater by an article appeared in Climbing written by Mark Synnot and Jeff Achey a few years ago.
There is a buch of guys talking sh#t about Maestri's personality. Why don't you guys get Mark or Jeff (I am sure it's pretty easy) and as them to write a note? The also interwieved Cesarino Fava, together with Maurizio Giarolli, and later Ermanno Salvaterra. As far as I know, Marc did Maestri's route too.
Would be nice, rather than having a lot of people talking craps without ever having met Maestri, to get their opinion.
Beside that, I still have a decent climbing level and I am here to get anybody in any of Maestri's route that he soloed, just to get the feeling of what Maestri achieved solo (with boots, not climbing shoes).
Ciao,
E
PS: Note of fun. Whatever the French said, nobody in the world will agree with them.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2012 - 11:42am PT
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That's not genius, "let's imagine"
Anyone can mental speculate and then juggle words to make a fantasy in their fertile minds.
It didn't happen that way no matter how one spins it in their heads.
Get real .....
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New Age II
climber
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Jan 25, 2012 - 11:42am PT
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@ Enzolino
Era meglio in italiano...va bè va bene uguale... :-))
It was better in Italian ... Well it is fine the same ..
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
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Jan 25, 2012 - 11:45am PT
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I don't think anyone has ever questioned whether or not Cesare Maestri was a badass mofo.
It's his ethics and motivations - as well as his honesty - that have been called to question for over 50 years.
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stefano607518
Trad climber
italy/austria/switzerland
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Jan 25, 2012 - 11:49am PT
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PS. thanks God foradaiball account has been deactivated....
sorry guys for this Italian bug.....keeping writing in italian when nobody could understand him
gretz form Europe
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New Age II
climber
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Jan 25, 2012 - 11:51am PT
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There is the translator
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nature
climber
Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...
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Jan 25, 2012 - 11:56am PT
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I see loads of criticism to Maestri. But most misses the points that we are talking about 2 kids
They are not kids. though you are a prick for calling them that.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
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The Google translation of Mariana Fava's letter
In response to the interview with the 4 climbers [Rolando Garibotti, Colin Haley, Jason Kruk, Hayden Kennedy] in The Austral Parakeet:
An act of this ilk do not have any defense, I also believe that absolutely absurd arguments were used and no basis for justification.
NOT IN ARGENTINA where requested visas, green card, passport of the community, letter of invitation from a relative, cash or credit card, work contract or permission to enter, it happens in countries like Australia, Canada, United States Spain, "where you'll probably get well," yes, once you get inside.
I also think that two people like you, who since coming to this town were well received, where many young people take them as referring climbing, aggression did not need the entire community free of El Chalten saying it has no right to say they "do not step on the mountain," that people usually spend a lot of respect grows in the mountains, even from the people, or that the reaction in defense of the act committed "surprises" or "borders on discrimination" (discrimination: Separating distinguish, differentiate. Give inferior treatment to an individual or community on racial, political, religious, etc.)..
In addition to amaze me that having fallen into squalor to defend an act of vandalism (vandalism inclination to destroy and devastate without consideration and respect for others) as performed on the path of the compressor using the victimization, it leaves me a certainty: are arrogant and poorly educated. It is no use to walk around town with satisfied smiles, as if they saved a life. They should feel ashamed.
I also wonder:
What if someone spray painted the picture of the Mona Lisa because she does not like your smile?
What if a tourist were to Chaltén see something that does not like and just delete it?
What if an Argentine positions take out nails for over 40 years of a wall in USA ????????
I think it would be better to preach examples of respect for the new scale, instead of giving examples of arrogance and inconsistency.
Living means to act consistently as we speak, think and talk like common sense and think with your heart if we want to get romantic, believe me it's worth.
I mean it's useless to pull out nails with one hand and pull with the other gas cylinders from the top.
Utopias should leave aside, because even though they believe that "the mountains are all" I regret to inform you that these are well ARGENTINAS.
Make no mistake to be well received is the same as being considered local.
And finally, before speaking of humility would make it.
No best regards,
Mariana Fava.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:02pm PT
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The first ascent would have been done in 2012. The route would have gone on aid, for sure, in the 70's or 80's, at the latest. Plenty nearby of similar character did.
However, most of these big free climbs require an aid line to follow and this route was no exception.
I agree in general with the argument of "Theft of the Future", but the bolt ladder really just robbed some aid climber of a bunch of piton placements.
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Slakkey
Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
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Age has nothing to do with this was Maestri any more wise at his age for putting the bolts up in the first place? I think not
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nature
climber
Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
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he can't: he says he's ben banned from SuperTopo...
whack-o-mole. classic.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
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At the heart of the David Lama piece (in Spanish) was the notion that . . .
"the question is more about destroying or not destroying."
What makes this tricky is that Kennedy and Kruk are being accused by some of destroying an abomination that according to Leo Dickenson and many others, then and now, consider to be a sacrilege and violent act of destruction on one of the most elegant and spectacular rocks formations on earth.
Of course, no authentic climber would call the compressor debacle a "route," whereby dozens of bolts bristle from the rock within inches of good cracks. This, simply put, is "scaffolding," as Leo said.
The thinking seems to be that the route was always there. Now it has been climbed, and the original desecration can be done away with. Good or bad - I cannot say and I do not know. But I do know that arguments that Kennedy or Kruk did not have the "right" to do so are totally irrelevant to the simply fact that they DID do it. The vanguard do not ask permission.
Once again, it's great theater either way.
JL
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New Age II
climber
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
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The vanguard do not ask permission. ???????
Also be stupid not have to ask...........
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
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Que pasaría si alguien pintara con aerosol el cuadro de la Gioconda porque no le gusta su sonrisa?
More like what if someone slashed the Mona Lisa with a knife - pretty much what Maestri did - if you are going to use a painting to illustrate the point. Cerro Torre is the art and the compressor the desecration - how do you get that so ass backwards?
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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if you are going to use a painting to illustrate the point.
The compressor was the desecration, not the art.
RIGHT ON!
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:27pm PT
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Since when does one get credit for a route that they didn't finish?
Sure CM did the heavy lifting, but he bailed before the top.
Therefore a historical failure of epic proportions, not a route.
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nature
climber
Aridzona for now Denver.... here I come...
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
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The Larry: apparently in Italy and Argentina.
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Kimbo
Trad climber
seattle
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Jan 25, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
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The vanguard do not ask permission.
The "vanguard"? what silly pomp!
Sorry, but i cannot fathom anyone calling this a "vanguard" action (for reasons i stated previously).
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