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cintune
climber
Ollin Arageed Space
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Mar 10, 2016 - 05:29pm PT
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Haha, "let's deconstruct" indeed. In other words, more word games. Let's dispute the meaning of "paradigm" by denying that a model is being presented. And then let's drive the charade home with a mock distinction between the word "real" and the word "physical." No doubt there's something slippery going on here, but I don't think it's the physics :-D
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 10, 2016 - 06:08pm PT
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Cintune, no one is going to accuse you of accuracy or logical thinking. It will always require more than just bluster to make a point on this thread.
Let's look at this whopper:
"And then let's drive the charade home with a mock distinction between the word "real" and the word "physical."
Mock in the way you use it means not authentic or real, but without the intention to deceive.
Let's look at where you derive this from:
You said that colors are not "real" but radiation is. Weather you meant this or not, or were simply trying to lampoon, as opposed to understand something new - only you can say. But you did accidentally bring up one of the major sticking points on all of this, that being that most everyone on this thread would consider the words "real,' and "physical' as representing the same concept. Real being something we can catch hold of with our sense organs, i.e., an object.
Clearly, an idea itself is not an object, nor can you get hold of one. A color is an observer-created phenomenon, but who is saying colors are not real simply because qualia is not, itself, a physical object. I can look at an EEG array and equate certain frequencies with colors registering in my brain, but colors, as we know it, are not, themselves, brain waves.
And it follows that if objects are observer-created, then we are left with the conclusion that objects are also unreal.
A charade is an absurd pretense. To our discursive mind, which deals with observer-created objects all day long, to say these are unreal sounds ludicrous. These, after all, are the things in our lives. If you realized all of this, you would answer your own question: What is the big deal.
All the things floating around out there simply are not there as you perceive them if you are not perceiving them. The basic stuff is there, but it too might simply be like radiation - just energy passing through space.
If in fact the meta world is observer-created, and does not exist separate from mind, and if that is NOT a big deal, one wonders - what is?
JL
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 10, 2016 - 06:27pm PT
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All the things floating around out there simply are not there as you perceive them if you are not perceiving them.
Doesn't matter as long as we perceive entertainment.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Mar 10, 2016 - 07:11pm PT
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^^^ don't you mean good entertainment?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 10, 2016 - 07:12pm PT
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'These arguments were put forth nearly 100 years ago, and came out of the largely British Camp who founded the analytic tradition in philosophy. And if you've ever studied logic, you'd know all about it. The rub against these folks is that, as Tillich said, "They sharpen the knife but don't cut the loaf."'
if you ever studied logic, you'd know how to be logical (but on second thought, perhaps not...)
Their argument, which refutes idealism put forth more than a 100 years before that... is the fallacy that idealism requires that for a thing to be, we must experience it...
idealism makes no case for the necessity of that, it merely asserts it (as do you). However, if it is not necessarily true, then all of idealism comes crashing down (since it is necessary for idealism that that be true).
So make a case that for a thing to be, we must experience it... otherwise it is not.
You cannot.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Mar 10, 2016 - 07:15pm PT
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I love this questioning
To the zen contingent: How many people have achieved enlightenment?
Base
I've asked this same question many times before
How many?
Is it zero?
I would like to know
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 10, 2016 - 07:37pm PT
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The foolish ignorant gross materialists never understand anything at all beyond what their foolish minds tell them.
Everyone is already enlightened eternally.
The foolish gross materialists have fallen down from that platform due to their rebellious nature and have forgotten everything.
Thus they've resorted to foolish mental speculation, foolish pseudo arguments which are unproven, and hypocritical ultimatums.
Thus they've proven themselves time after time as clueless masquerading themselves as learned by their fine art of rubber stamping their credentials onto each other.
They have no power except to ultimately destroy by their very own karmic reactions against the forces they speculate against ......
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Mar 10, 2016 - 08:16pm PT
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dependent origination
does that have anything to do with birds?
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Mar 10, 2016 - 08:46pm PT
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A thing is always an object (JL)
That would mean that radiation, itself, is material (JL)
From the internet dictionary definition of "thing":
3. an action, activity, event, thought, or utterance -
"she said the first thing that came into her head"
Per usual your impeccable logic appears to be questionable. However, you can wave your magic scepter and make this definition vanish.
If in fact the meta world is observer-created, and does not exist separate from mind, and if that is NOT a big deal, one wonders - what is? (JL)
You and MikeL love to use this ploy of false assumption to imply a speculation you like to entertain. Logic 101.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Mar 11, 2016 - 07:37am PT
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And BASE, you are still not getting the gist of the "Falling tree" thought experiment. "Sound" is a perceptual phenomenon. The falling tree, if no one was there to hear, still produces vibration at a certain frequency, but a snake, for example, even if it was IN the falling tree, would not "hear" the vibrations because snakes have no tempanic membrane, ergo no "sound."
Hope that clears it up for you, that "sound' and vibrations are not selfsame.
You are wrong. Sound is indeed vibrations. They are caused by pressure passing through a media, be it air, water, or rock. Our ears are limited to a certain frequency of these vibrations, and we call that sound. Some sound is not perceptible, simply because it falls out of that frequency range. Just like our eyes, our ears can only perceive a certain frequency range. Other animals can, depending on the animal, hear things that we humans cannot.
Seismic exploration for oil uses sound. You wouldn't believe the data that you can pull out of simple sound. It is amazing what the geophysics guys can see, using different attributes.
Blue Whales for example, sing a song that is so low in frequency that we can't hear it. You can tape it with an appropriate microphone, speed it up, and listen to it at a higher frequency sweep.
Since we can't hear it without instruments, are you telling me that the song of the Blue Whale doesn't exist?
Colors are merely descriptive names for frequencies of light that are in the visual spectrum. If you have ever turned on a radio, you should know that those are also wave frequencies in the electromagnetic spectrum.
There is a LOT of stuff going on in the universe that we can't see with our eyes. We have to use instruments to measure them. Why is this important? Because it is a part of reality. From Gamma Rays to extremely low frequency, it is a spectrum.
We know that UV waves help cause skin cancer. How can that be? You can't see UV light. Does this mean that it doesn't exist, JL?
I won't get an answer, because he doesn't have one.
John. Go here for a little help:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_spectrum
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 11, 2016 - 07:41am PT
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I am staring to question my perception of reality.
What is going on?!
You are meditating. Be patient.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Mar 11, 2016 - 08:24am PT
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Werner said"Everyone is already enlightened eternally."
The buddha supposedly said everybody is already enlightened; they just don't know it.
What do you think he was getting at?
The heart sutra says " no attainment with nothing to attain"
The egocentric mind has no clue what enlightenment is. It all comes back to dualism.
ZM seung sahn used say "enlightenment is easy to get but hard to keep"
ZMSS used to also say "only just do it"
You guys know what they are talking about your rock climbers; when you climb you let go of everything and "just climb" . You can do that with every aspect of your life if you are really paying attention; to really pay attention you have to let your self interests fall into the background (i.e. your opinions, your situation, your condition). Rock climbing is a very easy way to do this (the rock doesn't care about your opinion); it is more of a challenge in day to day life. Thats where "the work" comes in.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Mar 11, 2016 - 08:37am PT
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Reality, or nature, goes on doing her thing regardless of what we might think. Largo's disconnect from nature, and I assume MikeL's as well, is striking. They discount existence. They, unfortunately existing, discount almost everything. What is that word for people who have no belief?
That's right. Nihilism.
edit: I missed the above post from PSP. I really have nothing to say about what he says. Generally, he makes sense.
Even MikeL has come forth, and we understand him as a person. Largo is the holdout, who confounds us with nonsensical stuff. He is a writer. If he wanted to communicate better, he could. Unfortunately, he acts like he has some secret key that he won't share with us.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 11, 2016 - 09:18am PT
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...to really pay attention you have to let your self interests fall into the background (i.e. your opinions, your situation, your condition).
like not posting to this thread, after all, what are you doing, really doing?
I agree that the phrase "achieving enlightenment" has always struck me as oxymoronic, as both the verb (as an ego driven act) and the noun (as conveying a personal accomplishment) are in many ways contrary to the presumed intent of the philosophy.
Does Nike sponsor Zen masters? that's a delicious superposition...
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 11, 2016 - 09:20am PT
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He's not trolling (Largo).
You just can't understand his views and conclusions due to your inexperience in the subject matter.
Those with a lot experience in this subject matter can easily transcend thru the different styles of communication and get the core point being made.
They're all pretty much the same, with only slight differences.
The materialists are definitely with serious difficulties due to their inexperience's, biases, heavily fixed in only material and mechanistic scientific fundamentalism as the ONLY WAY that science can be (scientism).
Thus they get left behind and are the true cavemen who still see the earth as flat (metaphorical), despite their so called advancements of manipulating the gross and subtle material energies by mechanistic means ......
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 11, 2016 - 10:14am PT
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Backwards Christian Soldiers
Backwards Christian soldiers
Marching to the score
Of a heartless racist madman
Just like once before
Trump the Royal master
Leads against the foe
Real or imagined
For a cheesy hat we go
Backwards Christian soldiers
Marching off to war
We don't care if he's a Christian
Just as long as he's not poor
At the sign of triumph
Liberals doth flee
Bring on the Trumper Tantrums
To seal our victory
Political correctness
Will vanish in the haze
As we pummel the protesters
With the crosses that we raise
Backwards Christian soldiers
Marching off to war
We don't care if he hates Muslims
Or an emigrant so poor
(write your own verses and continue the song. It's fun for the whole family!)
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Mar 11, 2016 - 10:22am PT
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What's the sense of non-sense?
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John M
climber
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Mar 11, 2016 - 11:42am PT
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The buddha supposedly said everybody is already enlightened; they just don't know it.
What do you think he was getting at?
your higher/true self is already in heaven. Once you get to know who you really are and all that that entails, then you find that you started out enlightened. Yet there is a difference between the lower self and the higher self, in that the lower self can be lost, and can enter hell. So when he talks about "you", being enlightened, he is talking about your higher self, which is the real you, you just don't know it. Kind of mind twisting. haha..
So the goal of enlightenment is to unite the lower self with the higher Self.
Jesus said.." I and my Father are one". He was talking about a number of different things. He was one with God the Father, but also one with his higher Self.
..........
How many people have achieved enlightenment?
The next question is, what would you do if you achieved it? A total understanding of everything. Does that include a cure for AIDS?
How many people? Lots
Cure for AIDS? There is no yes and no answer to that because it involves the fact that God gave humans dominion in the physical. Which means that we choose the experiences that we want inside a set of laws that oversee creation. I understand that Its hard to imagine anyone choosing to experience AIDS, yet if you start to understand reincarnation, then you can start to see how this is possible. Everything is energy, so over lifetimes of poor choices we have created hell on earth. Hell that was not created by God. It was created by Human choices. To understand that, you have to understand that everything is energy, and lower choices create lower energy, which in turn are out pictured in nature by lower and lower energy evolutions. Hence, in the beginning of the creation of the material world, there were no thorns and no disease. Not even any death. But as we turned from God, we created lower and lower energy, plus we cut ourselves off from God's higher energy, and thus like the Salten Sea, we became polluted and it became more and more difficult for good things to grow.
So healing AIDS as a whole requires a sea change in people. Individually it can be done. But few are capable of it and those that are, are not allowed to go against a person's karma. Jesus healed the blind man by an infusion of higher energy, yet also said that it was the man's faith that set him free. Meaning that the man had done the inner spiritual work to prepare for a healing in the physical.
These are very simplistic explanations.. so please understand that they are incomplete.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 11, 2016 - 12:11pm PT
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All goes to show us what 10 billion neurons sputtering away at between none and a hundred spikes per second, all interconnected to each other and capable of producing changes in each other lasting from milliseconds to decades, receiving, massaging, and rebroadcasting information about sights, sounds, smells, touches, tastes, and all can produce when taking time out. From the lovely imperative of reproduction.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 11, 2016 - 05:55pm PT
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Maybe sad, but maybe in a Charlie Chaplin sort of way.
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