Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Mar'
Trad climber
Tustin
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2009 - 01:15am PT
|
I took a hundred footer on overhanging ice on Papa Bear when it turned into a slush-fest and I got spit out on a pair of skinnies in the olden-days. I'd clipped into separate biners on separate single-length slings hitched to a single screw. The screw was in a solid hummock of blue ice. It was pointing UP at about 80 degrees, 40' below my high point. I never touched anything on the way down and the take-up of energy was a very curious experience. Gentle, yet dynamic. The ropes MUST have stretched at LEAST twenty feet. Overall, that fall was a very pleasant event. The ropes stretching then rebounding took a long time~ and so did the fall!
It was the rebound that kicked my ass! That was a LOT of force and fortunately I hit the wall squarely and perfectly flat against my back during my violent UPWARD vector. We didn't always wear helmets in those days, but Bruce Nyberg at the Rock+Ice had set me up with a slightly over-size hand-laid "Joe Brown" fiberglass shelled motorcycle style foam-laminate job. He said to get it over-size so with a ski-hat on the helmet wouldn't just sit on top of my head like a cherry on an ice-cream sundae.
Well, my head was part of my body in those days and the impact completely killed that helmet. The shell was not "broken", but it was permanently toast with a nasty fracture along the lower back portion and the inner dense foam liner was badly deformed.
When I stopped bouncing I was very strangely angry and yelled to be lowered! Bob Horton, who had just saved my life, kneeled in the snow with the shaft of one of my tools buried spike down about five feet from him. He'd unclipped from the anchor and jumped/run/fallen down the slope to take up the slack and I was dangling about 20' shy of the base of the ice.
When I got down I told Bob that it was his turn to lead!
I love double-roping and all it's advantages. I've never used one in Yosemite or Jtree though. For sure on some Tahquitz routes and in the mountains. I'd use a pair of 8s or on diceyer stuff, a single rated 9 with an 8.5.
|
|
adam d
climber
CA
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2009 - 02:11am PT
|
Yikes Mar!
I've had a couple sets of Mammut Genesis 8.5 double ropes...they're great. I've done some simul mountain routes with one of 'em, a few times with each person carrying coils and ~30m between us, sometimes just doubled over and simuling on 2 strands of 30m of 8.5. It's nice to be light but still be able to rap 60m. After logging plenty of air time, especially in the Gunks on these ropes in a double setup, I've got a lot of faith in them. Getting caught by two ropes, each on some small piece of gear really increases my "go for it" above little pro. If the edges aren't too much of a concern and you aren't really dogging it, I find these doubles to be a great option for climbing in a party of 3, though on harder/sharper/more serious routes I revert back to leading on two singles or caterpillar style with two thicker ropes.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2009 - 08:51am PT
|
The biggest advantage pro wise with the doubbles is the ability to place 2 seperate pieces of pro and have each piece clipped to a different rope. No idea what the actual impact forces on each piece are in that scenario but they must be lighter than anything you could conjer up with a single rope.
Interesting to note that the monster ice whipper on a screw up post was both ropes clipped to the same screw. Everything worked out just fine. Every time these threads pop up someone proclaims that clipping both ropes to one piece will kill you. Read the directions when you buy the damn rope and please stop telling me that I will die if I follow them ;)
|
|
Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2009 - 08:57am PT
|
We use our doubles for all trad routes,unless we plan to toprope after,which happens about once a year.Tradchick learned to belay on doubles and is a master.No reason you shouldn't be able to manage someone clipping over their head while maintaining on the other line.
Tag lines,by comparison,seem moronic.10 mm plus 7 mm is 17 mm,but you have only one advantage here,rapping.8.5+8.5=17,but opens door to all half rope advantages,safer clips,wandering pro,double pro at crux,protection in event of rope getting cut,don't need a cordelette(gasp!),or PAS,can recover stuck rope,protect the second.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2009 - 09:07am PT
|
I totally agree that the double system is great for multi pitch and long single pitch. I merly contend that there are climbing scenarios where the single rope system is great as well.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2009 - 10:32am PT
|
Same trip but 2 different scenarios. I really wish we had a fat single for the Aid pitch.
I ended up climbing this pitch instead of jugging it but the ropes still got buggered up a bit on the sharp drilled angles.
May be hard to see in the small photo but that is 2 9mm Mammuts running through each draw.
|
|
August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
|
So all you guys that are belay aces with double ropes, what is your strategy at stance/hanging belays? My partner and I climbed with doubles early in our career, quit, and then tried again for a season or two (much later and much more rope proficient). The place where we really got slowed down is when the leader is at a stance belay and the second is coming up moderate terrain. With a single, the second could run up the pitch arriving out of breath (we often lead in blocks). With doubles, the rope management made the second climb at a leisurely place. We've tried: stuffing both ropes into one bag, no tangles but extremely slow; and flaking over a sling, which is quicker initially, but eventually you lose all of your time savings when the inevitable tangles arrive. I know, some will claim we need better rope management skills, but when climbing with a single, if a rope picks up some pig's tail cork screw, not a big deal. With doubles, what do you do? Throw the ropes out? And doubles make the leading in blocks problematic. As a leisurely, fun, multi-pitch style, doubles worked fine for us and no real complaints. But for the hurry-up style, a lot of frustrations.
Unless the rap line does not come back down the climb, we usually just take a single skinny 70m (no tag) figuring we can make most raps and leave a sling or stopper if not.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2009 - 12:47pm PT
|
August, your style is faster, simpler and easier. Us old fuddy duddys just like our security blankets. That extra rope gives us lots of options to make the climbing safer and retrete easier;)
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
|
August, I'm not really a good person to reply because I'm not a big fan of the hurry-up style. Still, the issues you raise apply to those who prefer to travel at a more (ahem) stately pace.
If leading in blocks (something I never do), I think there are two solutions, neither of them fast: either switch ends of the rope or restack the pile. Trying to turn it over and have it run will be a disaster enough of the time so that it isn't worth it.
For long multipitch routes without good ledges for piling the rope, I have found the Metolius rope hook to be a superb rope organizer. While belaying, you can throw coils over the hook as fast as you can take in rope. The coils do not have to be specially sized as they do when flaking over a sling, the tie-in, or your feet, because with the hook you do not have to pull the coils out. Instead, you simply pick up the rope at the top of the coil and drop it---it automatically frees itself of any loops it might have wanted to capture had it been pulled. Absolutely no tangles and as fast to load and unload as you can handle the rope.
A little gimmicky but worth the time savings and handling ease in my opinion.
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2009 - 02:11pm PT
|
Trying to turn it over and have it run will be a disaster enough of the time so that it isn't worth it.
We do that (flipping the ropes over from one daisy to the other) a fair bit, and rarely have any problems. However, we mostly move at fairly low speed, and have the time to sort out the rare tangles that do occur.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2009 - 02:18pm PT
|
I either restack or retie. restack is best. It gets you warmed up again and the blood back in your fingers.
|
|
dustonian
climber
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2009 - 03:58pm PT
|
Two ropes are retarded unless you're wandering all over the place or climbing sharp crap or ice. Who wants to drag up a collective 17+mm of rope??!??! And then when you fall one little skinny bullshit rope catches you anyway.... fukkin genius!
|
|
Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
|
Guess that depends on how you are getting down eh?
We usually restack.Key to success is not getting the pigstails to begin with.Don't tie the ropes together when you rappel,tie separate stopper knots,and don't let the lower one run over the upper one when you rappel,look some time and you can see the troubles forming.On a steep route we'll often cut them loose if it's knott windy.
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2009 - 09:11pm PT
|
We do that (flipping the ropes over from one daisy to the other) a fair bit, and rarely have any problems. However, we mostly move at fairly low speed, and have the time to sort out the rare tangles that do occur.
I've been climbing for more than fifty years and I think I need rope stacking lessons. When I flip one of those piles, I get the mother of all Gordian knots half the time.
While I'm at it, would someone like to teach me how to throw rappel ropes? No matter what method I try, I seem to be able to magically create knots and tangles, not to mention snagging every nubbin, flake, crystal, and twig in the universe.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Apr 14, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
|
Ain't that the truth!, i can't even flip over a stack of single rope without makeing salad and TWIGS! I effin hate twigs and sticks. They get in the middle of a pile of rappel rope and make a frickin ceasar salad out of the damn thing....... :)
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2009 - 09:44am PT
|
When I flip one of those piles, I get the mother of all Gordian knots half the time.
Rich, I'm certainly not advocating it, or saying "I do it all the time" -- only that in the last couple of years we've started to do it occasionally (against my instincts and over my protests) and it's actually been working out. There is sometimes some minor tangling, but nothing that can't be sorted out if one doesn't panic. I'd never do it if I was in a hurry though. That would be just begging for a disaster.
As to throwing rappel ropes, yeah, that's a whole other problem. Chickenheads, flakes, cracks, knobs, bushes -- none of which even existed on the way up -- seem to materialize for the sole purpose of snagging rappel ropes. And the wind, which has been calm for the whole day, suddenly starts to gust...
My personal bugaboo though, is the twigs that magically appear underneath my rope when I lay it on the ground at the foot of a climb. Bare ground, not a twig in sight. But start feeding out the rope and it's an instant snag-fest.
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2009 - 09:54am PT
|
Okay, here's a double-rope horror story. I told it on the "Squamish in the 70s" thread but it fits perfectly here:
Carl Austrom was a pretty good all-round climber at the time, but he did have momentary lapses of common sense, as hilariously (for me) shown on the second pitch of Zebra-to-Zion at Smith. Which isn't really in Squamish, but it's close.
I did a lot of my climbing on double ropes, and Carl decided he wanted to try it on Z-to-Z. It's a four-pitch classic on the main wall, which I'd climbed in the past and he wanted to lead. The first pitch traverses a long way rightward on big pockets, and as Carl moved across he placed gear -- some high, some low, wherever a pocket of the right size appeared. But he somehow hadn't quite got the concept of "one rope for placements on one side, one rope for placements on the other side" Or, in this case one for high, one for low. He just cruised along randomly clipping whichever rope he felt like clipping, crossing them over and under one another. When he got to the corner and headed up instead of sideways, he continued this pattern -- sewing up the crack and crossing the ropes crazily. He fought the increasing drag to the belay, and I followed.
By the time I got to his belay, the ropes were half piled and half hanging in the biggest snarled-up clusterfuk you can imagine. He, of course, was about to rocket off up the next pitch as soon as I clipped in.
"Carl, we gotta untangle this mess. It's gonna jam up something fierce."
"It'll be fine. It'll untangle as you feed it out."
"No, it won't. You'll get a little ways up and it's just going to be so tangled it'll never go through my belay device."
"Who cares? You can untangle it. It'll be fine."
And off he went. Got about 30 ft up, with me frantically trying to untangle and belay at the same time. He hit the 10b finger crux just as the rope snarl hit my device in an totally untangleable way.
"Slack!"
"Ain't no slack."
"SLACK!! SSLLAACKKKKK!!!"
"Not happening."
"AAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHH."
So he hung there off 10b finger jams, cursing and completely forgetting that dropping in a nut and sitting back on it would probably be the sensible thing to do, while I tied him off, untied myself, spent over ten minutes undoing the mess he'd created with his clipping, stacked things neatly, retied, put him back on belay, and told him he could now have some slack.
Funniest damn thing I ever saw while belaying. He had sewed the crack up below him, so he was in no danger, but he was so freaked by the immovable rope that he just clamped down on the rock and hung there, right on the crux, instead of taking a break.
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2009 - 10:51am PT
|
Le Promonade IV WI 5+ 12-21-05 shortest day of the year.
Cold, single digits, getting dark, party of 3. Alden was doing all the heavy lifting. Bob and I followed the freestanding pillar one at a time so the ropes got pullled up seperatly. We thought we had them stacked properly for ther last pitch but as Alden is raceing up the last pitch of uber steep 5+ as darkness approaches the ropes become hopelessly tangled. Bob and I are working as fast as we can to get them unsnarled and stuffed through the belay device. Frozen numb gloved fingers and one of the worst rope salads ever. Neither one of us was attempting to belay, we both were useing both hands to try and untangle the mess and stuff it through the device.. Somehow we pulled it off.
I contend that every climber who pronounces themselfs an expert at flawless doubble rope belaying and rope management has more skeletons in their closet than they care to admit ;)
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2009 - 02:51pm PT
|
I contend that every climber who pronounces themselfs an expert at flawless doubble rope belaying and rope management has more skeletons in their closet than they care to admit ;)
Well, that leaves me off the hook 'cause I sure don't claim to be no flawless expert.
I made a mess fairly recently (about a year ago), but it occurred because, in spite of my better judgement and in full knowledge of my inabilities, I tried turning over a stack. Had to untie ends to get the mess untangled.
I've had a few bad experiences with ropes flaked over the tie-in, when the action has made it impossible---for me---to properly graduate the loops while bringing up the second. Fact is, more often than not I can't get the loops properly graduated. However, I believe these flaking failures would also have resulted in analogous fusterclucks with a single rope.
The rope hooks seem to solve all the problems I've experienced, but I only bring them along on long routes.
|
|
Mar'
Trad climber
Fanta Se
|
|
|
Apr 15, 2009 - 03:39pm PT
|
When climbing in blocks, August— plan on swapping rope-ends, so you don't have to touch the you-know-what! It's a pretty quick way to go, if it's part of your routine. I don't know that it's not conventional— you're probably using a daisy anyway at change-overs.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!