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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Oct 26, 2005 - 01:59am PT
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Oh, Werner, you keep baiting me :-)
I don't believe in either fate or karma. I do believe in people causing good or bad in this present life/world, and I do believe in moral accountability.
Actually, I don't expect "closure" at this point. We thought that once a guy like Slater had gotten as high on the route as he did, and was willing to very vocally try to vindicate us, that the nightmare would be over... but such was not the case. So, we reached a point of thinking that external circumstances were not going to be the source of any peace.
After enough years, you come to know yourself, as I'm sure you know, and I think that our pain has largely morphed into a sort of quiet acceptance that we will never be understood by the climbing community. So, perhaps that's "closure" enough.
It is possible to have ongoing joy without constant happiness, and it is possible to have peace in spite of ongoing pain. So, our experiences with the climbing community have been largely painful, but I think I can speak for Mark as well when I say that we have lots of both peace and joy. My climbing has been the most worthwhile, rewarding, ongoing-life-changing aspect of my entire life, and the climbing community can't affect that. Thus, the way I see "defending ourselves" in forums like this is quite distant from the core of who I am and from the climber that I am.
I hope that makes some sense.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Oct 26, 2005 - 02:05am PT
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No, Lambone, I don't think the ROUTE is important. I DO think that what has happened in our relation with the climbing community is important, because it speaks volumes about human interactions in general.
I haven't done enough routes on El Cap to know where Wings is in the scale of "hard" climbs. I don't think that "hard" is an objective feature of routes anyway. Mindsets make routes feel "hard" to people. Some people hate hooking, and that seems "hard" to them--then Wings will seem really, really hard to such a person. Others hate expanding nailing. You know, it's all in the mind anyway. Right?
I have done "harder" routes than Wings. Our last route, Ring of Fire, seemed MUCH "harder" to me than Wings did, while the Sea and Intifada seemed MUCH easier to me. But, I hear of new horror routes that are way "hard" on El Cap. So, who am I to say where Wings is in the grand scale of things?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 26, 2005 - 02:07am PT
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Richard said: "So, we reached a point of thinking that external circumstances were not going to be the source of any peace."
Yes, that's intelligent.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Oct 26, 2005 - 02:26am PT
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Lambone sez: "sounds like you maybe think your route is important or something?
are you saying you think it is the hardest route on El Cap because it's unrepeated?"
Interesting idea. Not baiting Mark, but if it was or is the hardest route on El Cap and no one has bothered to give a serious go since Slater because it is universally dissed as a sh#t route? What if it is harder than the (original) Sea? The word irony doesn't adequately describe that possibility.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 26, 2005 - 02:58am PT
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"I DO think that what has happened in our relation with the climbing community is important, because it speaks volumes about human interactions in general."
Which climbing community?
My guess is that 99.9 % of the "climbing community" as a whole has never heard of Wings of Steel. Nor would know what formation it's on, or wo put it up, or the story behind it.
Probly the same could be said about Ring of Fire.
Were you really suprised when the Valley locals were not happy when you picked the most FEATURELESS aspect of El Cap to make your first ascent?
Seems like the traditional ethic was to minimize blank face aid climbing (i.e. bolting) whenever possible. You chose the opposite approach. A move that takes balls no doubt. But I can easily see how people took it as you giving climbing ethics the middle finger, so to speak. What you got from the community was the middle finger back, which is generaly how most human interactions work.
Just an opinion from the sidelines. I'm glad that you have apparently found peace (or not, considering your lengthy posts), but what you have written makes it sound like you have learned to cope with living with cancer or something....
I supose you could call this post a troll.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 26, 2005 - 03:28am PT
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yes lambone .. that post is definately troll bait
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mike hartley
climber
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Oct 26, 2005 - 09:38am PT
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Werner,
The route was Catdancer and the climber that told me the story was Paul Landrom. Paul was a hell of a nice guy and a very solid climber. I never heard anyone in the Oregon climbing community ever say a bad word about him. He seemed rather shocked by the response he received while putting up the route.
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MSmith
Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 26, 2005 - 10:39am PT
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HalHammer,
Hey, I’m sorry for what you at Camp Wawona have gone through over this.
“If the rumours and seeming reputable stories about your routes aren't true... Mark and Richard why have you not defended them until now?”
When I showed up to do Wings of Steel, I was focused on personal mission, although I don’t think I really understood it at the time. I had no idea of the extent of the controversy that would ensue. My mom had recently died after a long battle with cancer and I needed to know who I was and the point of my existence. If there hadn’t been another climber who would ever notice or care we were there, I would have climbed Wings and would have climbed it to the best of my ability, all 39 days of it. The reality was that the climb was extremely stressful for me and was beyond my ability. Stepping up to a higher level became the formative event in molding who I am today. Nothing can take away what Wings means to me, so perhaps this diminishes my need to defend it. Of course it would be great to be respected for the climb. I want that now as much as then. As Richard details in his post, we did do a lot to tell the story. I think that Climbing’s decision to not publish Slater’s article helped lead me to take a fairly fatalistic view of the whole thing, that the inertia against the climb was too much to overcome. Of course, the Internet wasn’t a forum until recently.
To reaffirm, we climbed the entire Great Slab without a single bat hook. If you can look at a Wings placement and say “that was done with a drill or chisel,” then you are looking at a rivet or a bolt. Mark Spencer, who isn’t an admirer, wasn’t in the Valley during Wings and is getting his info from others. I don’t doubt that Mark believed what he told you; many others have believed as well.
Prior to this thread I have never posted a view on bat hooks or bolting, so the previous source you read wasn’t mine.
Regarding Blue Moon, no, I’ve climbed a line that crosses through its traverse pitch, but I haven’t climbed it. Blue Moon and several other Wawona Dome climbs are well worth the hike. Some great stuff there for those who like being the only car at the trailhead.
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MSmith
Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 26, 2005 - 10:55am PT
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To John Vawter,
In reply to "are you saying you think it is the hardest route on El Cap because it's unrepeated? ... Not baiting Mark, but ..."
The fact that Wings of Steel is unrepeated is certainly interesting, but it doesn't prove anything. The only thing I'll assert is that I was maxed when we did it.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Oct 26, 2005 - 11:07am PT
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I'm a bit surprised by the amount of real discussion here instead of the normal baiting and drivel (Lambone's cheap troll excepted). Still, no reply from Ammon or Bruce Morris, both of whom seemed to have opinions before the explanatory posts. Any more comment guys?
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Oct 26, 2005 - 11:15am PT
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I haven't cared either way on this (though I've heard the slander from numerous sources) and I'm inclined to give both Richard and Mark the benefit of the doubt. I for one am super glad you downrated that Intifada sh#t. That makes many people smile.
But here's what bothers me:
With a hook failure rate of 30% on the FA, what's the sustainability of such a route?
If the route got twenty ascents, would there be anything left but rivets/bathooks?
Is it possible that many people (upwards of 15 parties?) have bailed from the first pitch because it's been ripped clean by traffic?
Was Slater forced to drill or unwilling to drill and forced to retreat?
And re: Ammon, don't yank his chain too much, he might go second this thing in like 18 hours.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Oct 26, 2005 - 11:26am PT
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I'm not yanking Ammon's chain, nor am I yanking Bruce's. They posted and I'd like to hear their follow up opinions. I for one would love for someone with Ammon's (apparent) climbing abilities and Werner's integrity to climb the route (I say apparent with no slight intended. I don't know Ammon and without personal knowledge I can only assume from what I've seen that he's a cutting edge climber. And I assume and hope that he has Werner's integrity, but I don't know him, so I use Werner as a "measuring stick.") Anyway, if someone with these attributes repeats the route and reports "objectively" it could clear up decades of conflicting information. I still remember the contoversy that swirled around this route in my very earliest days of climbing and I'm very interested in the information coming out now.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Oct 26, 2005 - 11:59am PT
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"The route was Catdancer and the climber that told me the story was Paul Landrom. Paul was a hell of a nice guy and a very solid climber."
That's Landrum. Good guy, and alive and well. Not to be confused with Lambone, who made some good points. The business pitches on these routes (Wings and Winds of Change) are on the apron (Great Slab). Yecch. That angle is more conducive to balancing a hook on a very minimal edge. But why bother when it takes so many rivets and bolts to put it all together?
Sustainability. Once the flake is gone you can't make the hook move without drilling a hole. Whereas nailed out routes usually take micro cams, ball nuts, etc., or have fixed gear. That is a qualitative difference.
Ultimately, as Werner says, it's a free country, notwithstanding the objections of the Valley Christians. We can speculate 'til the cows come home but it's all just gas until somebody climbs it and renders an informed opinion.
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wildone
climber
right near the beach, boyeee (lord have mercy)
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Oct 26, 2005 - 12:35pm PT
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It would be awesome to see some of the current badasses go give it a serious go. I wish I was at that skill level, as it sounds like it would be quite a thing, almost a service to the climbing community to clear up all this tripe, sad, bickering.
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mike hartley
climber
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Oct 26, 2005 - 12:59pm PT
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J. Vawter,
Yea, Landrum is right. Simple typo. Paul inspired a lot of us Oregon yahoos back in the '70s. On his first trip up to Half Dome he went up to do a standard overnight ascent but they climbed so fast they topped out in a day. Paul said they didn't plan to do it in a day, it was just an "accident". The man liked to move. Glad to hear that he's doing well.
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MSmith
Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 26, 2005 - 02:39pm PT
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Yo wrote “But here's what bothers me: With a hook failure rate of 30% on the FA, what's the sustainability of such a route? If the route got twenty ascents, would there be anything left but rivets/bathooks?”
Yo, that’s a valid concern. While the quality of El Cap granite varies quite a bit, at its best its quality is amazing. A nickel thick level edge will consistenly hold body weight with a Leeper narrow hook. Simply unbelievable. Unfortunately, some micro-ledges are actually the tops of micro-flakes which are subject to being separated from the main wall by a very thin layer of greenish clay. (It seems that the clay is an end product of a natural deterioration process of the minerals in the rock rather than something that has washed in, but that’s just a guess.) Looking at a micro-ledge it’s usually impossible to know whether you are staring at simple ledge, the top of a solid flake, or the top of an undercut flake. If too large of an area has been undercut by clay, the whole flake is subject to peeling off. Many if not most of the micro-ledges/micro-flakes on the area of El Cap we climbed are not undercut with clay. These should be able to sustain repeated hook placements. No doubt that there are some flakes that we stood on that are undercut and are time bombs ready to go off. In the majority of these cases, other flakes will be available, at least for those willing to try. So I think that the route as a whole is reasonably sustainable, although clearly more holes will go in over time. But the route is not as sustainable as others, which is a valid criticism. I want to go off on a rant about the trashing (needless non-sustainability) of big wall classics like the Sea which has been turned into an A2 or A3 fixed copperhead clip-up, but I’ll save that for another time.
”Is it possible that many people (upwards of 15 parties?) have bailed from the first pitch because it's been ripped clean by traffic?”
Slater’s ascent to the 5th anchor was not one of the earliest attempts, giving credence to the notion that the remaining flakes are stable.
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jack herer
climber
chico, ca
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Oct 26, 2005 - 02:48pm PT
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someone f*#kin climb the route now
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Sonora, California
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Oct 26, 2005 - 03:39pm PT
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Yeah, somebody climb it. I weigh too much for hooking fragile flakes, and I'm not sure I'm looking to do El Cap again all that soon. Who's a "light" hard man that can answer our questions?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 26, 2005 - 03:53pm PT
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"(Lambone's cheap troll excepted).
Why dismiss my troll as cheap? Surely it was a troll, but a sincere one at that, not cheap at all IMHO, but valid from one perspective.
These two guys above come off not understanding why so many people dissed their route when the answer is obvious. It's a forced line up a black face.
The tradition on El Cap (as far as I know) was to minimize forced blank face climbing by linking as many features as possible to create a natural line. Even Hardings WEML linked spectacular features.
So Wings follows a water streak, yeah well folks that want to climb water streaks ussualy head up to Toulomne and put their free shoes on.
Aiding up a feature (or lack of feature) like that is forcing your way ip the stone under drill and chissel (as they admited above to chiseling hook placements).
Doing so to link to crack systems is one thing. Doing so from the ground up with no intentions of finding or following crack systems is another thing altogether.
So fellas, don't be confused about why people diss your route, it's clearly obvious. Sure the hook moves are no doubt ballsy, but there is no doubt a clear difference in style between an ascent that works with the mountain following natural features and gaining vertical ground as the mountain allows you, and bashing your way up the thing with chissel and drill. So you had more hook placements (some chisseld) then drilled holes, so what?
Dumbing down the Sea of Dreams to justify your route by hole count is missing the point. The Sea is a natural line of features. The Great Slab is just that, sometimes not meant to be climbed.
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mike hartley
climber
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Oct 26, 2005 - 04:18pm PT
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Lambone,
If, as they reported, they predominently used natural hooks how can you say they didn't follow natural features? Maybe others had "eyes but could not see"?
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