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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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"At no time did anyone here blame ONLY Israel."
Anyone who has read through all the posts of this thread could come to a different conclusion.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Bruce,
Your comments about foreign Muslim students in American universities reminded me of two of my graduate school classmates. One was a Jewish Israeli, the other a Muslim Iranian. They soon became fast friends. They were both good people. Unfortunately, I lost touch with them about 30 years ago, but their friendship showed what happens when people stop de-humanizing those who are different.
Unfortunately, this thread has had a lot of that de-humanization, beginning with its title and the initial hatefully anti-Israel posts, which engendered responses condemning terrorism, some of which painted with too broad a brush.
That's why I condemned the unnecessarily inflammatory rhetoric (at somewhere around 800 posts ago). I think most of the posters on this thread think that there's been sins on both sides of the conflict. It's the posts that fail to acknowledge and reflect this that keep this thread going.
John
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Bookworm;
I really and truly owe you an apology. I slept only three hours last night. I have friendships with Palestinians which I cherish. These images of suffering are not abstract polemics to me. I meant to write, "anything but a bigot." But instead I wrote "nothing but a bigot." I would never intend to communicate like that and I deeply apologize. That is, my mistake was unintentional, due to lack of sleep and hasty writing. I had to leave after posting or I would have corrected my mistake earlier. I will change it now, however.
I honestly have the highest regard for your profession as a teacher and hope that it brings increasing rewards. What subjects?
As to appreciating American Freedom, we also share common ground. My recently deceased father served in the U.S. Navy, Chief Warrant Officer, for twenty years, fighting in the Pacific Arena, and was a Pearl Harbor Survivor.
Even though I probably am a thorn in your side, I actually do strongly appreciate that you have opinions and are willing to express them.
And If were in my neighborhood, I'd welcome you to my home and enthsiastically show you my crags.
I'm glad I drew you out however and want to explain myself.
Forum discussions can easily degenerate by what is not expressed as much as what is expressed: When presented with photographs of profound representative suffering, your response was: "This is what it looks like when...genocide threats, murder, etc.."
I found this to be highly offensive, perhaps just like many have objected to the obviously rhetorical title of this thread (yet apparently did not opt to shift to Philo's alternative).
For example, if on the way home tonight you see bleeding, dying children and weeping parents on the side of the road from an apparant collision, would you just say, "this is what a car wreck looks like...they shouldn't have been speeding."
I hope not, and I hope you are the kind of person who would step up to the plate and offer help if none had yet arrived. I hope you would suspend judgements in such a case, it still being in the "heat" of disaster. Even afterwards, I would hope you would be very interested to understand what the true circumstances were which led to the accident. Was there black ice? Was there a another vehicle causing it? Was the driver returning home following a twenty four hour shift as an emergency room medic?
Being a teacher is fine indeed, but the position of authority places a greater burden of responsibility to look deeply and continually beneath the surface and to ascend the pinnacle of compassion and uderstanding, knowing that, "but for the grace of God, go I." We can take no ultimate personal credit for the privileges and freedoms, abilities, and even accomplishemts most of us were born into or did not achieve without help.
I chose to invite you to befriend Muslims, as equals, (rather than as a teacher, an authority), because it is an incremental step. I wouldn't recommend you to openly "seek-out " Palestinians in the current climate or put another way, I was as concerned for your well being, as well as recognizing the intensely personal and insecure feelings of all Palestinians right now. But leaving Palestinians aside (and certainly Hamas), I do believe you would benefit from the friendship, pespectives and (famously generous) hospitality, of Muslims in general, especially Arabs.
On a more personal level, Bookworm, it may help to tell you my own background. I'm not one to parade credentials as this is a cheap tactic, much abused. But I should mention that I have been hosting international students, visitors (and climbers), for over thirty years, including many appreciative Arabs and Palestinians too. This has been my vast privilege and honor. I take seriously the Mosaic admonitions to "love the foreigner," as well as the New Testament teachings and implications of Gentile inclusion. I possess a Masters of Divinity degree in Philosophy of Religion and Systematic
Theology with a concentration in Islamic Studies(3 yrs grad work). I have advanced studies in ancient Hebrew, Greek, and Romantic Languages. Earlier I just indicated this thread was a special area of interest to me, which is what I'd prefer to say, but I want you to see that I have not formed my opinions (concerning what Fatrad might see as the "Clash of Civilizations,") lightly. Forgive me if this sounds boastful.
All this to say that it has certainly not been my observation in all these years, that Middle Eastern Muslims in this country have been universally, successfully integrated or even slightly understood. We have a very long ways to go. "To whom much is given, much is expected," and so I see our burden being a great one when it comes to inclusion. Nor would I ever suggest they do not generally recognize and value the freedoms of American Democracy or that they or anyone else for that matter, does not recognize the indiscriminate devotions of the American Red Cross.
And I would like to add that for some, currents of "drunken" materialism and all-out promiscuity in Western culture, are not unnoticed either.
Again I wish to very personally apologize for my unfortunate error and to wish you well.
Bruce
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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My apologies. I just reread the beginning of the thread and along with the thread title there were some offensive posts. In this thread there were also some post calling for the complete destruction of the Palestinians, which I find offensive.
So I ask those who support Israel.
Do you think Israel is completely innocent in this?
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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And John(JEleazarian), The illustration you describe, says more than all the bombs or blood ever could. It is the evidence that hope exists and that goodness does indeed dwell within all of us when we choose to overcome our "inherited" animosities.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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we can argue back four thousand years, but that history is irrelevant...even if we begin at 1948, we'll never reach agreement...so let's deal with recent history--the last 10 years and see if anyone can recognize a pattern:
the world said to israel, "leave lebanon, and you will have peace"...israel left lebanon, but did it get peace? no, it was attacked by a stronger enemy that took israel's departure as an opportunity to rearm, and when israel retaliated, the world screamed...at israel
the world said to israel, "accept a two-state deal, and you will have peace"...israel (finally) accepted the idea of a palestinian state, but did it get peace? no, it got suicide bombers...so israel built a wall to keep out the bombers; the wall worked, but the world screamed...at israel
the world said to israel, "leave gaza, and you will have peace"...israel left gaza, but did it get peace? no, it got more attacks...so israel blocked the borders to stop the flow of weapons to be used against their children, and the world screamed...at israel
israel endured THOUSANDS of rocket attacks, yes, THOUSANDS, and the world said, "tsk, tsk, tsk"...when israel finally decided to retaliate and try to end the rocket attacks, the world screamed...at israel
so, forget about history, just tell me, right now, what can israel do to fulfill its primary obligation, which is to protect the israeli people? you keep repeating israel's "oppression", but what further concessions do you want israel to make that they haven't already made? and why should the israelis make any concessions to a group that calls for their destruction? that refuses to acknowledge israel's right to exist? that proudly prays for the extermination of jews all over the world?
name one israeli leader who calls for the destruction of the palestinian people...or calls for the extermination of muslims around the world...show me one video of israelis dancing in the streets to celebrate the deaths of palestinian civilians...show me one video of israeli children being taught to hate palestinians or muslims
hamas simply has to do two things to end the violence: stop attacking israel and recognize israel's right to exist = peace
bruno, your car wreck analogy doesn't work, but i'll edit for you:
what if bookworm was a chronic offender (multiple speeding tickets and accidents) and killed bruno's children in an accident...and then bruno sued and left bookworm penniless and made sure bookworm was never allowed to drive again so bookworm couldn't get a decent job and take care of his own kids...and let's say bookworm spent his welfare on booze instead of food and medicine for his kids...and then, bookworm went to cnn and cried on camera and said, "bruno is an oppressor; i want bruno dead; i should be allowed to live in bruno's house"...and then bookworm walked up and down the street firing a pistol into bruno's house all day, every day for three years before finally hitting another of bruno's children...and then let's say bruno came out with a big ass rifle and bookworm picked up a child and kept shooting into bruno's house where bruno's other children were still sleeping and playing...so bruno shot anyway and blew bookworm's arms off so bookworm couldn't shoot at bruno's house anymore, but bruno, despite his careful aim, also hit bookworm's child and then drove both bookworm and his child to the hospital and even paid for their medical treatment but bookworm's child died...and the cnn-watching world said, "bruno, you're a nazi"...what would i do?
i'd say bruno showed remarkable restraint and has a right to defend himself and protect his own children...i'd feel bad for bookworm's child, but i'd declare to the cnn-watching world that bookworm deserved the blame for the death of his own child...and if bookworm started kicking grenades at bruno's house with a child strapped to his back while the world stood by, i'd encourage bruno to shoot again, but this time shoot to kill
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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I feel sorry for bookworm's child too.
But what about all the kids that bookworms child goes to school with who Bruno also killed because the gun he told CNN he was shooting at bookworm with was actually an airplane with machine guns and he was carpet-sweeping the street as he chased down bookworm?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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I feel sorry for Bookworm. He has clearly demonstrated just how difficult it is to reach a heart thoroughly blackened by a lifetime of misinformation.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Lesson #1, teacher:
History is never irrelevant
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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"so, forget about history, just tell me, right now, what can israel do to fulfill its primary obligation, which is to protect the israeli people?"
Start by stopping all of the bullying.
but you will not realize this. You think Israel is innocent in all of its dealings.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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I'm really quite miffed indeed by your commendation Skipt:
"The fact that many of these guys can't do a thing to your arguments should be taken for what it is. They can't touch, Your excellent analysis."
Bookworms arguments are based consistently upon false premis and are thus fallacious from the get-go. Beyond that he routinely commits red herring, excluded middle, ad hominum, and equivocation.
Your commendation itself commits the error of circular reasoning.
Yet what is most disturbing is the lack of humanity, failing to recognize the sacred nature of all human life by communicating indifference to the suffering of innocents.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Jan 10, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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I have very clearly stated I oppose the violent actions and tactics of Hamas, Skipt.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jan 10, 2009 - 12:28am PT
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If you corner a rat in a corner, and kick and beat him and try to kill him after killing his family, would it be wrong if he bit you?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 10, 2009 - 12:31am PT
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Sadly, scabang got his bang-for-buck troll here....exacerbate the problem...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 10, 2009 - 12:33am PT
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Do you suppose skip that Israel went from 20,000 or so Jews 100 years ago to their current status only defending themselves? Does the right of self defense apply only to the Israeli side?
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 10, 2009 - 12:37am PT
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I don't see how it could, Karl, self defense and all.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 10, 2009 - 12:40am PT
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"and NOT attacking them is cause for a "defense" "
If only this were true. Israel has behaved scandalously towards the Palestinians. The truth will come out. Israel is not innocent.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 10, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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By out, I just meant common knowledge. Its out. Most just fail to see because it makes it more difficult to pick sides. People like black and white equations.
Hamas Bad
Israel good.
The problem is that Israel isn't really good. They have brutalized the Palestinians.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 10, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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"The people of Israel don't have to be perfect to defend themselves. "
More black and white thinking.
No one expects them to be "perfect". We expect them to treat their neighbors the way that they want to be treated. Much Like Jesus taught. If they wont, then I see no reason to support them financially. The Palestinians would never have elected Hamas for its leadership if Israel hadn't brutalized them. Watch the film "Death in Gaza" for an example.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 10, 2009 - 02:22am PT
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I condemn them also. I also see things to condemn in Israel.
The question is.. How to stop the rocket attacks. My premise has been that bombing the living daylights out of innocent people would not work. At least for long.
You seem to say that there are no innocent people in Gaza because they voted for Hamas. Well Israelis voted for their government and their government has done brutal things. So by your logic, there are no innocents in Israel.
Personally I think that there are Innocent people on both sides and neither side is doing themselves good. I prefer to take no sides, which is why I don't support giving money to Israel until they clean up their act.
You seem to focus only on the rockets of Hamas while ignoring the acts of Israel. The rockets of Hamas are a direct result of actions of Israel. The bombs of Israel are the direct results of the rockets of Hamas.
So how do you stop this? Especially when you try to follow Jesus' teachings. He who lives by the sword will die by the sword. He who seeks so save his mortal life, will surely lose his spiritual life.
I don't think that Jesus would condone the actions of Israel, nor would he condone those of Hamas. So how do you stop the viscious cycle of attacks? Or do you just wish to ignore what Jesus taught and go back to old testament ways?
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