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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 20, 2016 - 10:55am PT
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who got killed because all he had was a single hand gun, inadequately armed
If he had a semi-auto handgun then he was not ready and did not react
quickly enough or appropriately. Just as the libs blame the gun for the
violence now they blame the gun for not stopping it. Of course, 'private
security guard' is usually an oxymoron: at $12/hr you get what you pay for.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 20, 2016 - 10:57am PT
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Looks like Norton's got on his big boy troll pants today.
Keep 'em coming.
You'ze a funny guy.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 11:35am PT
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Purposely misconstruing remarks for sake of partisanship is a major part of our undoing. We'll reap what we sow.
...
Lorenzo, the quote concerned literalist fundamentalist I in relation to literalist fundamentlist C over generational history - not individual discrete cases in the now.
"The bigotry propagated by Christianity has been slowly waning throughout the centuries, but that simply is not (yet) the case in the Muslim world." -Muhammad Syed (ex-muslim)
I find Frank Graham and those like him living under iron-age era understanding (re the world; biology, etc) disturbing no less than others. They are worthy of criticism for the doctrines they support and espouse no less than any fundamentalist Muslim. I am sure he would call me a bigot.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 20, 2016 - 11:39am PT
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Over the weekend I read an interesting poll result. Over 60% of Democrats view this incident as primarily a case of domestice gun violence. About 70% of Republicans view it as primarily Jihadist terrorism. The American public as whole has 49% seeing it as primarily Jihadist terrorism, 41% as primarily domestic gun violence, and 10% other (including both and neither).
I consider the poll an inaccurate measure of true public sentiment because it offered only simplistic options to describe a complicated act with, most likely, several contributing factors. It nonetheless demonstrates one thing well: it takes an awful lot for people to let one data point change their world view.
I have yet to read a post on this topic that demonstrates this tragedy causing any regular poster here to change their overarching outlook on these sorts of incidents, or even to look for common ground. Instead of focusing on what we can do to prevent another attack like this one, we use it as an opportunity to attack our domestic opposition, rather than our actual enemies. I suspect that when the public says they're disgusted with "politics" or "politics as usual," they're referring to the never-ending search for a partisan advantage, rather than a search for improving the general welfare.
If we keep this up, our elections will be little more than fighting over deck chairs on the Titanic.
John
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 20, 2016 - 12:05pm PT
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If we keep this up, our elections will be little more than fighting over deck chairs on the Titanic.
Seriously, with a career elected elite with name recognition vs. a blow hard wealthy reality TV star as the two primary party candidates, are you trying to argue we aren't there already?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jun 20, 2016 - 12:06pm PT
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Please try to ask a meaningful question, Esco.
Please.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 20, 2016 - 12:49pm PT
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Technically I believe it was a rhetorical question.
"Vote for Garbage pile B because it's not quite as bad as Garbage pile A"
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 20, 2016 - 01:02pm PT
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Technically I believe it was a rhetorical question.
So do I. The presumptive presidential nominees of the two major parties appear rather distasteful to me (although I still perceive a difference between dreadful and catastrophic), but the congressional, gubenatorial, legislative and (where they exist) judicial elections still matter. If we keep up our all-out partisanship devoid of principles, they won't matter either.
John
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Jun 20, 2016 - 01:38pm PT
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Lorenzo, the quote concerned literalist fundamentalist I in relation to literalist fundamentlist C over generational history - not individual discrete cases in the now.
"The bigotry propagated by Christianity has been slowly waning throughout the centuries, but that simply is not (yet) the case in the Muslim world." -Muhammad Syed (ex-muslim)
I find Frank Graham and those like him living under iron-age era understanding (re the world; biology, etc) disturbing no less than others. They are worthy of criticism for the doctrines they support and espouse no less than any fundamentalist Muslim. I am sure he would call me a bigot.
Again, you are painting Christianity and Islam with different brushes. Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world, and guarantees freedom of religion and even parliamentary seats fo Christians, Buddists,and Hindu minorities,( as well as anamists). Those religions have guaranteed tolerance. They have a ways to go with other religions, but so do we.
Malaysia, where Syed is from has a similar system. Only the head of state need be Muslim.
From the wiki:
Freedom of religion is enshrined in the Malaysian Constitution. First, Article 11 provides that every person has the right to profess and to practice his or her religion and (subject to applicable laws restricting the propagation of other religions to Muslims) to propagate it. Second, the Constitution also provides that Islam is the religion of the country but other religions may be practised in peace and harmony (Article 3).
The idea that all of Islam is stuck in the "kill all the non believers" state of thought is just wrong. For one thing, passages in their holy book preach tolerance of other religions, especially "people of the book". It specifically calls Torah and the Christian Bible holy books ( later interpretations include teachings of Buddha and Zoroasteras scripture)
Show me passages like that in the Chistian bible. If Chistianity seems to be advancing more, they had further to move.
The first official recognition by the Catholic Church that Islam worshipped the same God came in 1964 with the second Vatican council. Islam did that by 623.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 02:18pm PT
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The idea that all of Islam is stuck in the "kill all the non believers" state of thought is just wrong.
uh huh. That's what you hear me saying, is it?
It's a rhetorical question. Have a good one.
Ps... and seriously, if I hear one more excuse, another exemption, for Indonesia i just might puke.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-morality/
It's right there in the tables. You seem academic so have a look. Homosexuality. Marriage. Alcohol. Womens's rights. Sharia. Apostasy. Etc. Indonesia by and large is no classical liberal hangout. No exemption on fundamentalist Muslim practice percentages either.
Even if any percentage is just 15% too, whether Indonesia or some other, that's 1500 people - traditional literalist fundamentalists - in 10,000. I think America at this time (2016) is a bit ahead of THAT curve in progress and enlightenment in these social areas, thank atheist god.
You obviously do not know me either. I hardly paint C and I with different brushes when it comes to their fundamentalist traditional forms. Ask many here. Christianity used to be just as backward on most of this, even as recently as the 80's. Huge change in just one generation, probably millenials do not even know how it was - how retro and fundamentalist it was - in the bible belt in the 60s to 80s.
You may have studied the Abrahamic religions a lot, so have I. It practically used to be my career. Thankfully, I've moved past them. Far past them.
Search It's "ovah for jehovah" right here. How far back does it go. lol
Speaking of percentages, it is obvious very few people in 100 at these forums can discourse without hyperbole. (eg. "the idea that all of Islam...")
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Jun 20, 2016 - 02:31pm PT
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So. We are a acustomed to the "designated driver" who won't drink when out with a group of friends.
So, now we will need to get acustomed to the designated "side arm carrier" who won't drink when out with a group of friends.
I'm glad I'm w-a-y too old for clubbing!!!!
Susan
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jun 20, 2016 - 02:35pm PT
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So, now we will need to get accustomed to the designated "side arm carrier" who won't drink when out with a group of friends.
Rich and famous people are already accustomed to having designated shooters close at hand, at all times.
They call them bodyguards.
In the future, everybody will be rich and famous for fifteen minutes
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 02:53pm PT
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FBI changes course, releases full version of Mateen transcript. Good job.
...
We need to repeal the 2nd Amendment. Owing to modern-day abuses.
It hinders more than facilitates.
(Simple as that.)
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Jun 20, 2016 - 02:56pm PT
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They call them bodyguards.
No sh#t. And they are professionals that likely know more about what to do than a 20 something all excited about being the designated packer of heat.
Susan
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 20, 2016 - 07:58pm PT
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Some bodyguards (like the Orlando shooter) are wanna-be cops who can't pass the psychological litmus test required to work as a police officer.
Wait, what?
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jun 20, 2016 - 08:14pm PT
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Republicans are a terrorist's best friend.
On May 24, the House Appropriations Committee took up a proposal “to deny transfers of firearms to persons known or suspected to be engaged in conduct related to terrorism.” In a party-line vote, Republicans defeated the plan 29 to 17.
Nineteen days later, a man whom the FBI had investigated as a possible terrorist went into an Orlando nightclub and, claiming solidarity with the Islamic State, shot 49 people to death with weapons he bought legally.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jun 20, 2016 - 08:23pm PT
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Wait, what?
Omar Mateen, the Orlando shooter, obtained an AA degree in criminal justice, towards a career in law enforcement. He took at least one additional class for correctional officers.
Mateen was hired as a correctional officer at a state prison, but seven months later, he was administratively dismissed (fired).
The prison that hired him has been reticent to release details, but apparently he was deemed unfit to be a correctional officer.
In light of other revelations, like Mateen's history of domestic abuse and violence, it can be surmised that mental instability may have been detected, and he was rejected as unfit for duty.
Mateen later obtained a security guards' certification, and a security guards' gun permit, and worked as a security guard for G4S.
Mateen later took, and failed to pass, the Florida's basic abilities test to become a police officer.
Later, Mateen entered a nightclub in Orlando and killed 49 people in an extended, deliberate massacre using the gun that he had been permitted to carry and use as a security guard.
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/omar-mateen-a-look-into-orlando-shooters-work-hist/nrfqT/
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 20, 2016 - 08:44pm PT
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Sorry, I was just marveling that police officers passed a psych exam is all.
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