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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 27, 2013 - 10:53pm PT
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Lame = Lame
And you dipshits voted for it...twice!
A 2006 Siena College poll of 744 professors reported the following results:[13]
"George W. Bush has just finished five years as President. If today were the last day of his presidency, how would you rank him? The responses were: Great: 2%; Near Great: 5%; Average: 11%; Below Average: 24%; Failure: 58%."
"In your judgment, do you think he has a realistic chance of improving his rating?” Two-thirds (67%) responded no; less than a quarter (23%) responded yes; and 10% chose "no opinion or not applicable."
A 2010 Siena poll of 238 Presidential scholars found that former president George W. Bush was ranked 39th out of 43, with poor ratings in handling of the economy, communication, ability to compromise, foreign policy accomplishments, and intelligence. Meanwhile, the current president, Barack Obama was ranked 15th out of 43, with high ratings for imagination, communication ability and intelligence and a low rating for background (family, education and experience).[14][15]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Nov 27, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
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You guys still think the puppet-in-chief has anything to do with it?
Funny...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 27, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
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The cost of the insurance was lower because if you got sick, they took it away from you.
Can you support this claim with ANY objective evidence?
I have personally known FIVE people diagnosed with life-threatening cancer in the recent past (within the last two years). ALL of them reached their (low) deductible very quickly, and ALL of them then proceeded to rack up hundreds of thousands of dollars in (fully paid) expenses very, very quickly. Only one was on an HMO (Kaiser); the others were on various PPO plans through major carriers, such as Blue Cross, Humana, etc. In EVERY case, the insurance companies fully supported doctors' decision and just paid the bills.
All are now in remission, and ALL still have their original policies. Not only is your claim NOT true in ANY of these cases of which I have personal knowledge, but the insurance companies didn't even drop these folks AFTER the paying was done.
(As an aside, ALL of these people are terrified now, because they WILL lose these policies and then be faced with costs/deductibles that they just can't afford; AND they will lose the network of doctors that KNOW their cases. So, THESE people really are ones for whom Obumblecare really can mean death if their cancers return.)
Please provide the slightest bit of objective evidence that any significant proportion of insureds are just dropped as soon as they get sick.
You can't because the whole POINT of insurance is that the company is on the hook to pay as agreed ONCE you get sick. If anything, they would be legally allowed to drop people like I'm describing AFTER the paying was done, as contractually agreed. But, as I said, even that was not the case with any of the five people I know of (that even could have fit the profile you imagine).
I hadn't intended to get dragged into this morass again, but your outrageous claim that insurance companies have existed to commit constant and widespread fraud was just too, well, outrageous to not be called as the crap that it is; and nobody else was calling you on it.
You just continue to spout utter crap, and it's such a shotgun blast of crap, that even bunches of us together can't stay on top of what a, well, crap shoot it all is. You are a one-man, well, crap shooter. I'm calling you on this one pellet of it, because I happen to know first-hand that it's, well, CRAP!
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 27, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
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I didn't vote for Romney.
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bergbryce
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Nov 27, 2013 - 11:42pm PT
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Just spent about 30 minutes on Covered California.
For me, a 35 year old male, making not very much money.... $92/month for a silver plan, and $11/month for a bronze plan. My current low income allows me to qualify for a significant subsidy, which I'll happily accept right now.
The silver plan has a $2250 annual max out of pocket cost, while the bronze plan has a max out of pocket cost of $6550. The bronze plans have higher co-pays and other individual visit costs, not surprisingly. The silver plan is an incredibly good deal and is what I will be selecting.
So that changes my monthly cost from $210 (was $144 but went to $210 when I hit 35) for a not very good catastrophic plan which covered no preventative care and had a $6,000 deductible, to a $92/month and a $2250 max out of pocket cost.
I'll take it, thanks.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 27, 2013 - 11:50pm PT
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Where do these subsidies come from?
ObamaCare was promised to cost the Treasury nothing.
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bergbryce
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Nov 27, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=where+do+health+care+subsidies+come+from
or the first hit
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/11/07/243584170/how-the-affordable-care-act-pays-for-insurance-subsidies
On his show last Friday, liberal comedian Bill Maher called the Affordable Care Act a "Robin Hood" plan. "It does take from the rich to make better the poor," he said.
You can certainly make a case for that, says of the American Enterprise Institute. "In a general sense, the rich, of course, subsidize the poor. The rich pay more income taxes," he says. "So, yes, absolutely, that's how subsidies are supposed to work."
So if you're a low-income person getting a tax credit from the U.S. Treasury to subsidize your health care, a big chunk of that credit is coming from taxes paid by the well-off.
The Cost Of Subsidies
But the authors of the Affordable Care Act didn't want the subsidies to become a drain on the Treasury and add to the deficits. So they included provisions designed to offset the cost of the subsidies.
MIT economist Jonathon Gruber, who helped develop the law, says about half the costs are offset by projected savings in Medicare payments to insurers and hospitals. Another quarter is offset by added taxes on medical-device makers and drug companies.
"The other source of revenue is a tax increase on the wealthiest Americans," he says. "Those families with incomes above $250,000 a year will now have to pay more in Medicare payroll taxes."
Those provisions actually make the bill a net positive for the federal budget, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office. By the CBO's accounting, Obamacare will produce a surplus. Gruber says the law will "actually lower the deficit by about $100 billion over the next decade and by $1 trillion in the decade after."
However, many Republicans have expressed skepticism about those findings.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 28, 2013 - 12:05am PT
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When the subsidy is several times the potential fine for non-compliance, you would have us believe ObamaCare is dependent on many more times more people opting out than signing up.
The math just isn't on your side, hedge. Try again.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 28, 2013 - 12:18am PT
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Bergbryce is being subsidized to the amount of $118 a month. The fine for non-compliance is $95 a year.
That means, if hedge is correct and subsidies really are financed "From penalties on those like you who will refuse to comply", then simple math says at least 14 people have to opt-out and pay the fine just to fund Bergbryce's subsidies.
Can you say "death spiral" ?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 28, 2013 - 12:32am PT
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Are you saying we need to spend less money on healthcare?
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Nov 28, 2013 - 12:34am PT
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Ah heck, let's continue the trend of government bail outs. Obamacare is the next fleecing of the American tax payer. I mean " gov't bail out" that will be financed by the struggling "middle class" that are living pay check to pay check. Hedge's propaganda math does not add up in the real world. Oh wait, Hedge's world is not real.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 28, 2013 - 12:36am PT
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Is that a "yes" on less healthcare spending?
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Nov 28, 2013 - 12:41am PT
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We have a winner. Stock of Healthcare companies are doing great...wonder why.
This quote sums it up well.
"Customers aren't doing well but the insurers are doing great." Tanner said. "If everybody had to get kicked off the Chevrolet Nova and had to buy a Corvette, it would be good for Chevrolet but not" for car buyers, he said.
I get to spend 15K per year for a healthy family of 4. Glad I can contribute to the profits of a bunch of mega corporations.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 28, 2013 - 12:41am PT
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Chaz!
A success story!
Whaddya gonna do with that?
"So that changes my monthly cost from $210 (was $144 but went to $210 when I hit 35) for a not very good catastrophic plan which covered no preventative care and had a $6,000 deductible, to a $92/month and a $2250 max out of pocket cost.
I'll take it, thanks. "
Here....let me help you...
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=covered+california
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 28, 2013 - 12:44am PT
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Where's the subsidy come from? Who pays for that?
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Nov 28, 2013 - 12:45am PT
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You mean, I'm not going to be paying $22k a year?
Gee I had such faith in your ability to predict that my premiums would double and deductible triple
Wasn't that real? What happened?
Scan and post up a copy of your quote hedgy. It is all BS without pics.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Nov 28, 2013 - 01:04am PT
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Neither of the links you provided AT ALL sustained the point you were making. YOU claimed that insurance companies were committing widespread (in fact, general) FRAUD. And how? By "dropping people when they get sick."
Neither of your links (nor anything about the real world) support that claim, because the links you provided actually make entirely different points.
One link claimed that 1.7 million people will go medically bankrupt this year, but that article says nothing about how many were insured or what the nature of their insurance might be. The only mention in that article to insurance at all simply stated that people find it difficult to pay for their deductibles, and that has NO relation to your claim about insurance companies committing FRAUD by dropping people once they get sick.
Your other link made the claim that many people going bankrupt due to medical costs were insured. But that article talked so vaguely about the problem that it was impossible to determine what the issue really is. You could GUESS that the article is saying that people are running up against lifetime limits, which many policies do have in place. But, again, that does NOT sustain your claim that insurance companies are committing widespread (indeed, general) FRAUD by dropping people once they get sick.
Worse for your case: Even if we grant that ALL 1.7 million bankruptcies your articles refer to were in fact EXACTLY because insurance companies dropped these people once they got sick (a flagrantly ridiculous proposition that even your "proof" articles don't try to make), you're talking about a 1.7/330 ratio, which doesn't even come CLOSE to sustaining your claim that this "fraud" the insurance companies supposedly use as a business model is widespread, much less general.
In short, your "proof" articles are a JOKE and do NOTHING to sustain your sweeping generalization that the insurance company model is fraudulent because it is based upon dropping people once they get sick. In fact, your "proof" articles make NO mention of that idea at all.
This is my last post to you for the foreseeable future, because I have no more time to "argue" with somebody so completely immune to the facts and how to reasonably interpret them. I only post this to show any reasonable reader that your claims remain entirely unsupported and outrageous. Joe, your credibility is utterly non-existent on this subject.
You have a hobby horse to ride, and it is continually revealed to be a toy, stick pony. Well, yeeee-haw, Joe. Ride it off into the sunset.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Nov 28, 2013 - 03:03am PT
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Curt, no other Democracy so emphatically celebrates profit as we do
in addition, the current political dynamics for a pure single payer to be put in effect in the USA
are very different in terms of difficulty and administration than in the other countries
agree to disagree
No. I actually agree with you on that.
Curt
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 28, 2013 - 03:11am PT
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"....I have no more time to "argue" with somebody so completely immune to the facts and how to reasonably interpret them."
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 28, 2013 - 05:30am PT
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Hedge,
Does your health care plan cover OCD?
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