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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 24, 2013 - 10:47am PT
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“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.” EH
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Sep 24, 2013 - 10:50am PT
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Pretty sure the safety standards have gone way up in climbing as well Dave K:
Helmets, cams, dynamic ropes, portaledges, harnesses, etc
We enjoy all the luxuries of modern day technology in our climbing gear.
I think hedge nailed its few pages back tho. It's about religion, & guns. He's so perceptive.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 24, 2013 - 10:54am PT
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Just make sure when you are retrobolting that you put them close enough together that there are no obligatory moves.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 24, 2013 - 11:00am PT
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It's about respect and personal restraint versus entitlement.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 24, 2013 - 11:04am PT
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It's about respect and personal restraint versus entitlement.
and placing one bolt on a 5.9 when you are a 5.13 climber isn't entitlement?
Refering to respect, creating death girlfriend routes to build your own sad ego doesn't create respect in me, more like loathing.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 24, 2013 - 11:12am PT
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Loathing for who?
Someone who climbs at a higher standard that you have earned?
What does create respect in you?
Well crafted bolt ladders?
Chiseled routes?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 24, 2013 - 11:17am PT
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A top rope shall set you free...
Why isn't almost no risk a perfect fit for your level of commitment?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 24, 2013 - 11:20am PT
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You can run around the back and mini Trax the whole enchilada...or is that too much trouble?
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 24, 2013 - 11:27am PT
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There were a few people around before the Bachar Yearian was done that said it was impossible to lead from ground up.
There was a plan in place to rap bolt it by them.
Anyways ..... this stupid drama here is just that "SuperTopo" stupid stuff.
In real life people do what they can and leave alone what they can't.
There's enough choices out there now to satisfy everyone except .....
THE FANATICS
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 24, 2013 - 11:29am PT
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Loathing for who?
Someone who climbs at a higher standard that you have earned?
What does create respect in you?
So putting a single bolt on a 5.9 when you do 13 is a 'high standard' for you? wow.
I respect real (gear in cracks) trad climbing, where the rock dictates the level of sac needed, not a person with an inflated ego.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Sep 24, 2013 - 11:32am PT
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Wisdom=
In real life people do what they can and leave alone what they can't.
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Sep 24, 2013 - 11:38am PT
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^yep - oh f*#king well. Guess what - life's not fair! Want a new iphone? Get there first and wait in line or pay inflated prices on ebay instead of whining about it.
You guys are coming off as some entitled pussies. Once you're done climbing all the other well protected routes at a grade, then come back and talk about retrobolting 'museum' climbs. Until then, shut the f*#k up!!!
[coming from someone who isn't a very bold climber at all, but can accept my own limitations]
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susu
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
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Sep 24, 2013 - 11:47am PT
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There is no better example of entitlement than the the notion that someone who simply arrived first has an eternal claim on a resource.
What a great quote if favoring land management. The ethic to Respect the FA may be imperfect, but it is better than any other system of self governance so far, currently allowing climbers the freedom to establish whatever kind of route they like, which means ask the fa for permission on a case by case basis and or the community case by case, and if you are told no, go ahead and keep asking but don't touch the route.
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Sep 24, 2013 - 11:50am PT
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Since when is an iPhone in the same category as public land?
Its called GET THERE FIRST. Go to the beach and someone else is in the prime lounging spot on the sand - do you whine about it until they make room for you? Or do you settle and go elsewhere?
Want to tick a classic route? People get there early because there may be lines of parties!!! Wow, what a concept - people getting there first have priority.
Hmm, now lets see... FA ...FIRST Ascent - holy sh#t it has the word FIRST right in the title!!! Damn what a concept.
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Sep 24, 2013 - 11:53am PT
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Pages and pages of whining got to me.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Sep 24, 2013 - 11:56am PT
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All citizens should get free iPhones. It's not fair, I can't afford one, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 24, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2013 - 08:01am PT
JK Your not telling us sport climbing is popular?
Dam and all this time I thought my fellow alpinists
were wearing invisibility cloaks. Guess even some parks
want to keep out the riff-raff and the poor.
Very american indeed.
exactly, the 1% feels entitled to respect.
Todd-in your summary you forgot to mention
How Chim Chim found the sheep in the tall grass?
very satisfying
-jabbers
That's the new NCNP policy. It has nothing with my "opinion". The smart thing to do would be to pay attention to the warning and try to climb as cleanly as possible. This would obviously include not adding bolts to established routes. Surely this policy couldn't have anything to do with the retrobolts added to Mt. Stuart, Infinite Bliss, or Liberty Bell? If we don't regulate/police ourselves uncle scam will do it for us.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Sep 24, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
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Obama man, all Obama's fault. He's gotta retrobolt everything after Bushy ran it out & scared everyone.
Edit-
Jus' messin Ron :-)
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Cragar
Trad climber
MSLA - MT
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Sep 24, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
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WB-
"In real life people do what they can and leave alone what they can't."
If only people had this type of respect for themselves, others and the land. Unfortunately, in the modern world of the magazine athlete/REI catalog look - endeavor, it is acceptable to bring the challenge down to one's level. If it isn't safe, it is WRONG!
Having the "can't" is what climbing(and adventure endeavors) is all about, at least to me and how I was taught/mentored by some fine Sonora'n folks. You work at bringing yourself up and you manage what you attempt w/in your ability.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 24, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
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Refering to respect, creating death girlfriend routes to build your own sad ego doesn't create respect in me, more like loathing.
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This is a distortion of my experience. Nobody's original motivation was to "build our sad egos," nor yet to curry your respect. You silly rabbit. You probably weren't even a seed in your pappy's pecker when this stuff came down so you don't figure into this in any substantive way.
As I've said about big wave surfing, the great tradition still lives on because no matter what, if you wanna ride the big ones, you have to sac it up and paddle out and nothing can shrink the size. And no limp-wristed bellyaching, masquerading as good and common sense, can change things to your immediate liking. If you're not up for it now, you have to work up to it, an idea that many on this thread cannot stomach: that there is a learning curve, and they'll have to work it, or never do the route. I want it NOW. Like I want it. Sounds like a tantrum to me. But no cigar for the time being.
And this alarmist talk about people bolting up the old stuff no matter who says otherwise is just so many Nancy boys yelling wolfe. No such thing will ever happen and allowed to stand. There are still enough climbers out there who have some sense of person pride and honor and sportmanship that fey efforts to dumb down the wave, so to speak, will be dismissed out of hand.
Of course the safety standards have increased amazingly over the years. Modern boots, for example, have made the old slab routes MUCH more doable than climbing in EBs or the lug soles. Same goes or harnesses, ropes, helmets, and so forth. But only a shameless poser and poultroon looks to alter the medium itself. That's a non-starter. A no-go. And it'll never happen, mark my words.
That much said, I've suggested, as an experiment, that people complaining in this thread should go up and grid bolt Stoner's Highway, a moderately run out route first climbed in the old shoes 40 years ago. We'll see how that works out. Otherwise, it's going to remain hands off, for better or worse.
JL
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