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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jul 21, 2015 - 04:30pm PT
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Do wolves have sentience, Paul? Squirrels? Apes? Giraffes?
Ergo, do they have this 'soul' you write about?
I would think they do... perhaps not with the intensity it manifests itself in human beings. Frankly I'm not sure how you/anyone would define soul... but as a term it seems useful in describing the individual entity observing and feeling and knowing that's in each of us.
It's the mind/body problem that keeps showing up on this thread and its answer isn't entirely clear cut and will probably never be so: is the mind machine stuff or not? The human mind is more than willing to violate its evolutionary duties for the sake of what it feels is virtuous and noble and in that sense it seems mind has stepped away from the machine that lights it.
The one great certainty in human life is mortality to the degree that we often build our lives around our knowledge of that hard fact. What other sentient creature does that? It's a knowledge when reconciled that lends a kind of nobility to our lives and makes us unique.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Jul 21, 2015 - 05:13pm PT
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Not duke here, Mr. Delicacy of the Milk Toast,
Just the lowly bush-monkey.
The gist of my previous post/statement, although veiled, was that the idea of the existence of the soul is ludicrous. The aggregate of my experience is that of one who was subjected to a severe fundamentalist Christian upbringing. Then I was an agnostic for forty years, but decided upon not believing in a god or a soul several years ago.
I can understand meditation as a mental and physical tool for calming the mind and nervous system, even as an experiential journey of awareness in the sense of appreciating our state of presence. But to believe in meditation as a form of transcendence to higher levels of consciousness, or that the mind is capable at this stage of our evolution to transcend our physical bodies or cheat death? No, I simply don't believe that is true.
But that is only my opinion.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Jul 21, 2015 - 05:25pm PT
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My idea of death is that it is so permanent (extinguishing me completely) that no matter what kind of preparations I make, or whatever legacy I work to leave behind me, none of it will actually matter to me after I'm gone.
It's only for the living loved ones that I exist with now that I actually concern myself with. That I attempt at being fair and honest with them is my only true concern.
Death is a void to be avoided at nearly all costs. Ultimately I'll have no choice in the matter.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 21, 2015 - 05:25pm PT
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When we think of a word, for example the word 'brain', when examined with MRI techniques, the same parts of each brain that thinks the word light up in the same manner.
Think about that for a bit.
DMT
Recent reports are indicating such things. What are the implications? Well first of all this indicates some degree of commonality in our wiring. Not surprising actually. What else?
That Dingus thinks this important may indicate the MRI, INHO, has verified something. But note, it verifies something THAT LANGUAGE BY ITSELF CANNOT VERIFY. If so the MRI is shaping up as
a more precise and quantifiable language, than is language itself.
Think about it for a minute. We each spend so much time with language we think it is like our thought itself. Perfect. But hold on.
Imagine for a moment you are wandering in the ice fields 50,000 years ago and meet a Neanderthal female. You decide you want to broach the subject of having sex. Since every group of people confined together long enough comes up with their own language, what do you do? You accept that languages are absurdly artificial constructs and go to a more fundamental language; sign language. That, a smile and a momentary lifting of the shoulders and your communication is complete. And it won't lead to anything as funny as our habit on ST of pleading "when it is sentience, I will know it." That statement is an admission our ability at language is so minimal we can't use it to communicate.
MRI is not an absurdly artificial construct. Like sign language it is a fundamental medium of communication.
This is a big deal. It will take a century or two to get on top of. But the path is wide open.
P.S.
If this proves to be true, Michael Faraday will displace Darwin as the person most central to the evolution of our specie. There is a message to all of us out there in the trenches. This will prove true even though Faraday could not handle even Newton's Calculus.
As you struggle, go on hoping for the future.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jul 21, 2015 - 05:55pm PT
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You accept that languages are absurdly artificial constructs
The idea that language, one of the great achievements of the human mind, is only an "absurdly artificial construct" is so hopelessly romantic a notion as to have come directly from Rousseau's, "A Dissertation On the Origin and Foundation of the Inequality of Mankind."
The idea that science will create a language based on MRIs... well, enjoy. I think you'd get more from Shakespeare.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 21, 2015 - 06:32pm PT
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(We have the brilliance of refrigerator light bulbs going on in this thread. )
Jgill: One definition of "being" might be a phenomenon capable of endless philosophying about itself.
“Might be.” Yeah. “Might be” an infinite number of other definitions, too.
Definitions might be taking up most of people’s bandwidth here. (Then again, it might not.)
Seriously, self-reflection might well be a high standard for sentience. (Perhaps I should say “definition.” )
Once we get a definition established, we’re done, aren’t we? Doesn’t that amount to fiat?
Jstan: MRI is not an absurdly artificial construct. Like sign language it is a fundamental medium of communication.
Fundamental?
Every language requires interpretations, oftentimes more than what can be said. All are constructs. Just like maps. I can consult the maps of sewers or subway lines in NYC, or I can consult a map of NYC streets. Each are interpreted (“read”) differently. Neither is the territory.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jul 21, 2015 - 07:34pm PT
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IMHO soul = personality. After one dies one's soul lives on in what one has done (nod to jstan, here) and in the memories of those one has known. After a few generations one's soul has vanished.
Of course, there is the reincarnation myth for those so inclined. And the passage through the Pearly Gates for others. Say hello to those mysterious beings, the archangels.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jul 21, 2015 - 07:40pm PT
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I'm waiting for the day when they do MRI's of people looking at artworks and listening to music or watching a ballet. Those are also forms of language. Once we've done a good sample from our own culture then we should compare that to people of other cultures looking or listening to the same things.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jul 21, 2015 - 07:40pm PT
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Shakespeare didn't invent a language, either.
Ah! But he did just that in "one fell swoop."
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jul 21, 2015 - 07:52pm PT
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IMHO soul = personality. After one dies one's soul lives on in what one has done (nod to jstan, here) and in the memories of those one has known. After a few generations one's soul has vanished.
Is the soul eternal? I wouldn't/couldn't say but there is a continuance in memory, my parents "live" in a sense, in my memory; our past is "immortalized" in art and literature. I look at the "Pieta" and have an intimate sense of the man that made it 500 years ago... that's a kind of immortality, I suppose. I don't think souls require immortality to be necessary to our understanding of ourselves.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 21, 2015 - 08:37pm PT
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That Dingus thinks this important may indicate the MRI, INHO, has verified something. But note, it verifies something THAT LANGUAGE BY ITSELF CANNOT VERIFY. If so the MRI is shaping up as
a more precise and quantifiable language, than is language itself.
fMRI' s light up when they record fluctuations in blood flow, which happens AFTER the electrical firing of the neurons(our actual thoughts?), so there's that.
So the machine doesn't read our thoughts, merely where our thoughts have BEEN.
If we were to hook a fMRI up to say, a pro basketball player and asked him to say "brain", and then "mind" if there would be any difference at all?
For an fMRI to ever understand a "Sentiences' " language, it will have to be able to read that person's emotional stance.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 21, 2015 - 09:01pm PT
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on "Knowing"
When a grizzly is coming at you with its head in a low position, survival is not enhanced had you to access large portions of your archival temporal memory to interpret the bear's behavior. Therefore it is reasonable to expect that some portions of memory are devoted to knowledge that may be accessed instantly. If this is the case we might expect that after we have identified these memory banks, anytime MRI is showing blood flow indicating these banks have been called upon, we may presume we are in a "knowing" situation.
On another topic:
The fact we so often find people on ST retreating to the position that they can't describe sentience/porn but that they "know it when they see it" we have to conclude language is a highly arbitrary construct so arbitrary we cannot always use it. We especially can't use it when we are talking about equally arbitrary ideas, like soul and sentience. If you will we face a double whammy.
So I have a basic difference of view from DMT who attributes the language we use to form thoughts as being thought itself. We are using language for a function for which it is poorly designed. There is better out there now.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Jul 21, 2015 - 09:17pm PT
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One of the most powerful definitions of "soul" I can relate to...
Similar to Mr. Gill's definition, only this definition of soul/personality and raw emotion is communicated through the power of music.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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jstan
climber
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Jul 21, 2015 - 09:24pm PT
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Metre or time is the core of music. Every time a beat comes down when we predict it will come down we obtain positive feedback. The brain takes this feedback and resonates with the thought, "I am so f*#king on top of this!" If we are listening to the lyrics and they repeat something we hold to be true, it's more of the same.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 21, 2015 - 09:25pm PT
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Therefore it is reasonable to expect that some portions of memory are devoted to knowledge that may be accessed instantly.
Yeah prolly as a primitive evolutionary directive? Like in with Alzheimer's the the brain may forget experiences and people from yesterday, but it doesn't forget how to run the mechanics of the body. The brain does do alot without our cognitive influence. The mind gives us a huge aptitude for creativity, but I'll be damn if I can remember it the next day if I don't write it down.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 21, 2015 - 09:26pm PT
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"We have no description of matter because at the QM level there is no fixed aspect to describe. A general misconception is that there is actually some solid thing or substance upon which reality is built or sourced, and that we don't yet know how to describe it. In fact, we cannot describe 'it' because 'it' is not a thing or stuff in the sense or substance that we see on the macro level." If you disagree with this, kindly say where and why.
I grow weary of having this conversation with your car pool...
as you know Quantum Mechanics is our best description of the world at the atomic (and subatomic) level. However, as you also know, it takes place in a domain that is inaccessible to us, except through a prescription that allows us to make book on the outcome of experiments... and it does an excellent job at that...
however, it is odd to hear from you that, essentially, "the map is the territory," our quantum mechanical world is a description, and the rules of QM do not allow us to talk about that subatomic realm in the same way we talk about the world around us.
what is that stuff?
somehow, out of that stuff comes the solidity of our world... though we have these rather strange metaphors with which to describe it, and a theory that provides a very precise means of calculating it. We cannot describe "it" because Quantum Mechanics doesn't allow us to ask that sort of question. And while it seems to be true that Quantum Mechanics is the most fundamental description of our reality, it is only a provisional theory...
so by all means, one can claim that there is no "it" there... according to our most current ideas.
I'm not claiming that there is or is not "stuff" "down there." While you like to paint a big "M" on my forehead ("M" for materialist) and invoke the authority of your car pool (who all have the most reputable vitae no doubt) you are taking your "macroscopic" concept of "nothing" and equating it with a "microscopic" description of the universe that you don't know anything about (by your own admission).
As I've said in other posts to this thread, the reason we have so many "interpretations" of Quantum Mechanics is because we actually don't know how to deal with it, 100 years after its discovery. Perhaps there will be a time when we understand the "deeper" issues, but that is not now.
So to make any claim about what is actually happening "down there" and take it seriously requires more of an explanation, as it would be an extraordinary claim. But then, perhaps your car pool is in the process of writing that killer arXiv preprint that will explain what actually is going on "down there." Please have them pass the URL to the paper on to you so you can post it once they have written it, I'd love to read it...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 21, 2015 - 09:29pm PT
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My definition of sentience, as I said and have said, starts with the three cornerstones of awareness, focus, and attention.
what is it about those three cornerstones that limit them to human experience?
maybe you can explain what you mean...
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 21, 2015 - 09:37pm PT
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Since the world is sooo into stretching the meanings of words like marriage, soul, awareness, experience, conscience, behavior, etc, etc.
Might i? If Mew Horizon continues along in its infamous work without a hitch. Shall we say Horizon did a Noble job? Or, Horizon performed Admirably. Or Horizon's work was Honorable?
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jstan
climber
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Jul 21, 2015 - 09:44pm PT
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John:
You have intruded into a sphere of human endeavor that has no use for
"delivered wisdom".
Edit:
Might i? If Mew Horizon continues along in its infamous work without a hitch. Shall we say Horizon did a Noble job? Or, Horizon performed Admirably. Or Horizon's work was Honorable?
What we say is irrelevant. We can expect the probability for future funding has been enhanced.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jul 21, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
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If rolling on your back and expecting a divine belly rub is as far as you like to exercise your brain goes, enjoy it but the world ain't like that
A+
Priceless!
;>)
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