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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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What if, in the US, our government chose to take down the Mafia crime families by cordoning off the cities they were known to live in?
Of course, you can't let anyone who's in there out, once the decision is made to fence them in. Because the bad guys will walk out with the innocents. You can't even let the innocents evacuate beforehand based on this premise.
What of the wives and children of these mafia gangsters? They made their beds; let them lie in them. Too bad about the kids, though, but what are you going to do....
What about the people who just happen to live nearby, who had no idea? What about the business workers who delivered milk, newspapers, did lawn care, babysat... It "could" be assumed these people are just masqerading as business workers, when really they're criminals....
Now - what are ya gonna do, once you got them trapped? Can't let them out - oh hell no!
So - the government sends in commandos to bomb the hell out of the place. Kill them all. That IS the mission. They PUT their families and neighbors in harm's way and it's sad, but that's just the way it goes.
Anyone here got family or friends who live in a city where the mafia operates? They've been corralled and trapped for 18 months, and now the siege has begun. How do you feel about them being eliminated because of their bad luck in living where they do? Is it acceptable to you?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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So Nazism happened (and all the other 'isms happened) because certain people were born into a certain culture at a certain time?
While there is some truth to this, this is very simplistic and reductionistic.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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I read a story once (might have been propaganda for all I know,) but it was about Germans in Dresden who opposed Hitler and survived the firestorm, and who claimed that while it was happening they saw it as something that was ultimately horrible, but necessary. I wonder if any Palestinians are feeling that way now, or will claim to have felt that way. Duck and cover and hope that when it's over, things can get to some kind of non-hellish norm.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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It is perfectly negotiable Skip. Many of us have discussed the rocket attacks. None of us have condoned them. But I might start rooting for them if you all keep insisting on claiming the moral highground of "surgical" strikes and human shield caused "collateral" damage. And demanding a unilateral right to defend.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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philo, here's my issue with your position...you claim to abhor violence yet you were silent while hamas launched thousands of rockets into israel...you voiced your disdain for violence only after israel responded to these attacks and your disdain seems directed exclusively at israel with only token reference to hamas...i don't think i'm misreading so one could infer that you believe thousands of rocket attacks against israel are acceptable perhaps because there were few casualties and your anger now is not so much at the israelis but at the number of casualties...but this makes no sense; how should israel respond to thousands of rocket attacks? with an equal number of similarly unguided rockets into gaza? would the complaint not then be that israel should use its superior technology to avoid random casualties?
if israels stops defending itself, do you think hamas will stop attacking? i know, you probably want to spew about borders and "occupation"...well, get over it...you know, for a long time israelis were adamantly against a two-state solution, but they finally were persuaded that peace would come only if the palestinians were given their own land...well? that didn't work out so well, did it?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Bookworm that is a broad and uninformed statement to make about me. I have been posting for years. Have you read everything I have posted?
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UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
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Skip you illustrate the side of the argument you are on to a "T".
Fist you state this:
"And demanding a unilateral right to defend.
Perfectly said from your position.
But let me ask you this:
And who would you give this right to instead?
Do you give this right away for you and your children?
Why the hell would anyone else? "
Then you say:
"Fattrad is right on......Save lives.....Give up. "
So according to your logic only Palestinians should not be allowed to fight for what they believe in.
Complete and utter 100% double standard.
What every one of your arguments have been, total double standard.
And if you expect anyone to play to that tune, you are in for one hell of a crappy life!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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After WWII, it was determined that destroying cities like Dresden was not necessary. Targeting civilians, like those in Dresden, is the very definition of a war crime. The only reason why the bombing of Dresden was not prosecuted as a war crime is because the Allies won the war and did not want to prosecute their own people.
If the Israelis did to Gaza what the Allies did to Dresden, that would be a war crime.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Those would be:
The Religion of Peace Speaks
Children of Hamas
Palestinian Children's TV
Martyred Mouse and Killer Bee Replaced
You don't see Israeli children's programming of this kind. Those kids are already tragic long before they get killed. The best analogy is skinhead kiddies, oddly enough. And guess who they both hate. The irony is solid enough to set a cam in.
But anyone who keeps going around justifying their actions based on a covenant with a war-god is bound to run into trouble over and over again.
Five minutes in a time-machine, I'd go back and give Abraham a dose of antipsychotics. Nip it all in the bud.
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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[url="http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0109/p25s14-wome.html"]United Nations halts relief work in Gaza[/url] -- The Christian Science Monitor
The U.N. and Red Cross criticized Israel for imperiling relief workers and restricting the delivery of aid throughout the Gaza Strip.
[url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/08/AR2009010804118.html"]100 Survivors Rescued in Gaza From Ruins Blocked by Israelis[/url] -- The Washington Post
Relief Agencies Fear More Are Trapped, Days After Neighborhood Was Shelled
[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/09/gaza-israel-medics"]Israel accused of delaying medical access to injured[/url] -- The Guardian
Red Cross workers discover frightened children next to bodies of their mothers days after tanks shell district of Gaza City
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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thanks kline for showing us what happens when a society commits itself to the destruction of another...when a society openly and repeatedly calls for the extermination of a whole race of people--not just in israel but around the world (i think that's called genocide)...when a society indoctrinates its children in hatred...when a society "desires death as [others] desire life"...when a society celebrates murder as martyrdom
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WBraun
climber
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Blah blah blah blah.
That's all ya do about this topic.
Just puppets repeating what the various news sources are giving.
Go over there and live for 1 year with all the sides.
And then tell us the real truth.
Go on ... right NOW! Get your ass over there. GIT.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Werner, my wife was just recently there for a month. And I can tell you that if not for three kids in school we would already be over there. An excuse? Perhaps but I respect you enough to see the sincerity in most of my postings.
For me the reasons a thread like this is valuable are manifold. With out exchanges like these what would counter the endless propaganda barrage of a one sided narrative.
Who will speak for the beleaguered peoples if not some of us? Some ST posters come off sounding little different than those who accuse rape victims for wearing provocative clothing. Branding them responsible while charging them for the rape exam kit. The Gazans live in a prison none of US would find acceptable. Yet we insistently want to hold the prisoners solely responsible for the safety of the guards.
What else would you have me do? If we donate to a Palestinian charitable cause that is latter deemed connected, no matter how loosely, to a proclaimed terrorist organization we become vulnerable under several Dept. of Homeland (in)Security provisions.
Again what else would you have us do?
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Jefe'
Boulder climber
Bishop
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Nuke'em all.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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philo,
the palestinians said there would be no peace until israel got out of gaze...well, israel got out of gaza, forcibly removing its own citizens...and what was the result? hamas had free reign to arm itself and start launching thousands of rockets into israel
the people of gaza were also the recepients of millions in foreign aid (most from the us)...what did they do with the money? they bought rockets
you call the israelis prison guards...but the egyptians are just as adamant about protecting their border from the palestinians
hamas can end this conflict right now by stopping their attacks and acknowledging israel's right to exist...if hamas does those two very simple things and then israel attacks, then i'd be on your side
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Because it just isn't that simple Book. Human nature and history gets in the way. It gets in the way in just a few days even here on an internet forum. Werner is right. But there is an intermediate step possible:
Thousands of Middle Eastern Students currently are studying in U.S. Universities, paying out-of-counry tuition rates which are attractive for the schools. For many years now, these students experience profound lonliness and alienation, and usually, harsh instances of cruelty and indifference. (edit:many return to postions of great influence.) I would like to challenge you to meet some of these people, to have them in your home, to visit them at worship and have them visit your church if you have one. Take them to to the park and the museum and show them your library and ask your wife to make cookies for them. Study the Koran and introduce their children to baseball or climbing. Prove that you are nothing (emphatic edit: "anything") but a bigot, as I sincerely hope.
My daughter recently returned from an incredible, unique visit to Kuwait through a friend she made here in the U.S.. (edit)
I should caution you that these educated Muslims are far more articulate and reasonable than you probably imagine. Don't mistake my words I am not a Muslim, formally speaking, though I am a Christian. And believe that such an action is in line with "surrendering to the will of God."
If Americans had been careful to do this for even the past twenty years, we would be living in a different world, a world where communication and an effective level of trust is possible.
If this is daunting to you, I can hook you up with people that will assist.
Bruce
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"Prove that you are nothing but a bigot, as I sincerely hope."
i don't understand...
bruno, in what way did i make this a muslim issue? i didn't! if my solution is too simple, then why do you and the un keep calling for israel to cease-fire? why do you and so many others blame only israel? you act as if israel could solve this problem simply by not retaliating to attacks
and i believe it is that simple: if the grand mullahs (or whatever their title is) declare that israel has a right to exist and that calling for the extermination of an entire race is NOT the desire of allah, then the world will be a much better place
as a matter of fact, i'm a teacher in the public schools...i have muslim students in all of my classes...yeah, they're mostly good people, just like my christian, jewish, hindu, etc. students are mostly good people...they have friends of all faiths...the school system bends over backwards to make them feel welcome...there is far more anti-christian and anti-jewish sentiment in the public square than anti-muslim...they live here and they see christians, jews, hindus, and MUSLIMS living in harmony...they see mosques being built...they see people standing up and publicly criticizing the government, churches, religious leaders without fear of repraisal...they see organizations like the red cross and salvation army providing aid to ANYONE in need...they see american troops leaving their families to go halfway around the world and sacrificing their lives to protect MUSLIMS...they see americans donating money to help muslims who are victims of natural disasters, including muslims in IRAN whose leaders repeatedly refer to america as the great satan and call for our destruction...they are FREE to read anything they want, believe anything they want, and say anything they want while they're here and they are FREE to understand that those freedoms do not exist in their home countries...they are free to see the benefits to mind and spirit of living in a free country and they are free to decide they prefer to live in a country without those freedoms
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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"why do you and so many others blame only israel? you act as if israel could solve this problem simply by not retaliating to attacks"
This is where you keep making the same mistake over and over again.
At no time did anyone here blame ONLY Israel. We just understand that if a solution is going to be found, then it must include Israel stopping its bullying ways.
Of course, if a real solution is to be found, Hamas must stop its rocket attacks, and to get them to stop, it must also be recognized that these rocket attacks are precipitated by actions of Israel, including their action of blockading Gaza. When people start to become desperate, they will do desperate things. The Palestinians are desperate. Until that is understood, no one will find a solution to these problems.
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
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Philo, Moosie, Bruno et al - my hat off to you folks. Their aim is not to make any cogent argument but merely to wear you down and to your credit they have been unsuccessful thus far (largely due to the brutality of the invasion). And when the dust settles - however temporarily - they will throw their curve ball i.e the anti-Semitite slight. According to Abe Foxman and his ADL stormtroops (who, by the way, spied on anti-apartheid activists in the US on behalf of the racist South African govt, Ahem...!) if you dare to utter Madoff and jew in the same sentence, then you are anti-semitic. Do me a favor!
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