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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Doug
You're a gentleman for having taken all the abuse on
this thread. Thanks again for being constructive in
your replies.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Not Flameing or insinuating that you are a chick just telling it like it is. As a photographer I am somewhat used to getting ripped off on a reguler basis as well. It does seem that quite often people say the opposite of what they mean and I just used the example of the chick dumping you to get the point accross. When someone says
I don't mean to be rude.
I don't mean to hurt you.
I don't mean to steal your copywright.
I don't mean to be an ass.
it is generaly spoken right before they do exactly what they have just told you they didn't want to do. My verbal response to this disclaimer has evolved over the years to : Then don't"
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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By the time we got to drilling the aid ladder we already knew from pre-inspecting that the free climbing above it would be runout to a death route standard and had decided that was an unacceptable kind of route, for us, to leave behind.
Doug, I'm curious why you didn't put it up ground up, then add bolts later.
Its seems the only real two possible transgressions IMO are: 1. A top down approach "stole" the possiblity of a ground up FA for a future party. It seems to me if you could have done it ground up but decided not to that was your prerogative, because it could have gone either way, and the only people's experience affected would have been your own (except of course when it's been put in print and subject to other's scrutiny). and 2. The climb may lead to more of the same by other's who don't put in the thought or have the ability (but I think you have to cross that bridge when you get to it, you can't be responsible for everyone elses action. e.g. After Warren sieged a few climbs and that style was deemed not as worthy, fixed ropes on half dome were simply bypassed by Royal putting up an continuous ascent. But I guess if a poor route goes in on rap, it's worse because it can be chopped, but the damage remains.)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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DR, part of my interest here is because this isn't an abstract exercise for me. I have a new four or five pitch extension to an older one pitch line I'm working on where I managed to push it up through two smaller roofs to a high point under a very large roof structure before weather and our Peregrine closure set in. The first pitch existing line was put up by Couchmaster here.
The second pitch I put up in the fall was done onsight, ground up, cleaning and trundling free on lead. The line had never gone previously because it was blocked by a large panel of loose stone that, after some study, I figured a way to climb through to a stance above it and trundle. I did that section roped-solo so no one would be below me when the panel cut and despite arranging things as best I could I still got a my lead line chopped in the effort (was tagging a second rope). But that opened the line and as is typical around here, a spate of sketch 5.11ish climbing ultimately yieled a technically interesting old school 5.9 pitch and established a high point up under the center of a large interconnecting series of 25 to 35 foot roofs.
Once the Peregrine closure is over I hope to be back up there to finish the route. What makes that prospect interesting is that the combined roof structure is probably 60 feet across so there is no way around it, little pro, possibly no free line, and it'll likely be 12-13+ if there is. On top of that everything I've touched above the high anchor is hollow sounding, potentially loose, and variously somewhat bigger than a lazyboy with most the size of a Prius or larger. But above those roofs is a three pitch face [with more roofs] no one has ever seen much less been on. On mentioning the situation to a friend who is a Valley climber of some note in his own right, but who shares none of my delicate sensibilities, his immediate response was "why don't you just rap down, clean it, and set it all up?"
Clearly a good question. First problem, with roofs above roofs it simply may not be possible to employ such a tactic short of some Svengolly down-aiding. Second, ground up is a strong ethic for me. Many here consider and call ground up vs. rap-bolting a matter of 'style'; I disagree and the fact someone feels the need to shuffle it from ethics to style to avoid an internal ethics breach pretty much says it all for me (and I'm not saying that's the case for each of you with this line). In any case, I'm shortly going to face the same sort of decision you folks faced: try for free and then either stop, aid, or rap - and even after rap-cleaning the big roof may still only be possible on aid by anyone.
This case is a bit more complicated by the size and quantity of potential loose stone; one could claim to have an 'out' or 'pass' as rapping could be justified to clean for safety. But for me - if that's the way it were to go - I'd still consider it a breach of long-held, personal ethics which is quite a different dilemma then simply a matter of changing styles. This case may also a bit different in that I'm not particularly interested in getting to the top so much as being able to climb what I believe is a stellar face above the roofs (I can't tell from this thread how attractive the slab pitches were to Sean as opposed to him just wanting a route that tops out).
So the questions that might end up being posed to me is: what's that upper face worth to me? Do I abandon it because it can't be freed by anyone or do I resort to aid? Free or aid, do I wuss out and attempt to rap clean some of the large blocks which are likely loose? Irrespective of loose rock, how selfish am I if I aid through the roof if it looks like there are free moves I can't do just so I can climb the upper face? And how bad of an ethical copout is it to deal with very large loose blocks on rap? Bottomline, the question might best be expressed as is the potential of the upper face worth a personal ethics breach (or side-step for loose rock)?
We're all different - I suspect this would be a no-brainer for Bob and others, and certainly for my friend with no small Valley resume - but for me it's a matter of deep conflict, difficult introspection, and I'm alternately thankful for and resent the Peregrine closure for allowing / making me dwell in a strong internal debate.
Edit: Sweet, 700, and wasn't even paying attention...
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couchmaster
climber
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You got the 700th post Joseph! Nice catch.
EDIT First pitch note addition: that line Jh mentions in the post above was started over 20 years ago and has had literally thousands of climbers snail-eye or casually look at that upper rock face and line as they wander by, including moi. Joseph didn't steal the line nor will he have stolen anyone else's clean ground up FA should he take the sensible intelligent course of action and rap down so as to survive to play another day IMO should any of those rocks be loose, but I didn't see the SFHD choice as being, "do we rap and trundle so as to not kill ourselves when that huge loose block parts company with the wall"
Co-incidentally, one of the many folks who's looked at that face plenty of times and passed on it is Neal Olsen, (still climbing) who had taken a loose block at about Camp 6 level on the Nose for a Slim Pickens style ride in like 1968 or so and horribly smashed his leg: thus becoming the first technical rescue on El Cap. (Werner posted a great Bridwell pic earlier on ST with Neal in a stretcher)....shhhhh I think they're playing "it's a Small Small World" over there now.
Crap, here we are, I wasn't going to post again. Damn. If this passes Bobby Modles thread in numbers of posts I'm gonna be embarrassed, hope the guy recovers.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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An interesting point to ponder.
Other climbs on SFHD have been called "Death Routes."
But, as has been discussed elsewhere and on another thread, these routes keep the riff raff down to a pretty select group of climbers. So the guys that get out there are pretty darn solid. No fatalities yet, that I know of....
Any climbers tackling Seans route will likely be excellent free climbers, but not necessarily as experienced and zen headed as others. It is certainly possible to pop small gear out of a 5.12 corner and have an ugly meeting below.
As we know, trade routes and trails account for a far higher number of fatalities. More traffic, more danger....generally speaking. So, which is actually more deadly? It is possible that Growing Up will produce the first fatality over there.
Not that it could or would change anyones mind, just an interesting thought when thrown in with the death route comments.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sounds like Hank C. came close on Southern Belle. I'm sure he can provide the details, but it sounded from someone's post that he started tumbling. At that point it's probably just luck that he didn't crack his head along with the ankles.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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adapted from photo by le_bruce
line on upper slab for Growing Up is a guess, based on route description
[edit: right traverse on slab lowered, as per Doug's comment]
[Lost Again added on arch to left of South Face, as suggested by Ed; the line above that arch is a guess by me]
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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looks like a great line to rapp bolt to the left of karma.
i mean hell, now that the cat is out of the bag i wonder if DR and crew would have issues with that?
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BLD
Social climber
CA
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Ken,
I just looked at that Karma thread. It turned my stomach. You guys are the back bone of climbing.
Blair...
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Doug, I'm curious why you didn't put it up ground up, then add bolts later.
For the same reason I'm never going to do the paralled pitches of Southern Belle, much as I would love the climbing: too deadly.
The choices before us seemed, to us, to be:
1. Death Route
2. Rap Bolting
3. Leave it for the Future
Neither of us wanted a death route, or else that's what Growing Up would be now. Surely with a different name. And the South Face already had two.
If we left it for the future, then two possibilities: Either someone else would put it up as a death route, even further monopolizing this wall toward an elite minority, or emerging technology would shift the balance. So maybe Gecko Foot™ Rubber or, say, Suction Cup™ Pro to the rescue. In that case, BFD, the whole game is changed forever and we all get to rant about it on some future thread.
See how it began to seem kinda pointless to us not to rap install it? Even as blasphemous as that seemed, at first, to us.
So now, this summer, you and I (with my healed elbow tendons, thanks) get to rap in from the top and climb on the superb and unique upper slabs of the South Face. I can't wait, cuz I know how beautiful it is up there.
See you up there.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Doug,
> Good idea to put fresh bolts on Karma, and I think I just heard Fatty volunteer. Thanks!
> I have an idea for a slight upgrade. NO, not THAT. Hear me out.
> Put little chains on the bolts that reach over that cord-slicing edge on the dike. (Or swaged cable...whatever.) Then the rope can run below the dike out of harms way. You can see in those Karmic photos that some of the bolts are right above the dike, making it easy.
The potential rope cutting is certainly a concern, but I don't think this suggested solution would work. Since the bolts were drilled by standing on the dike, they will generally be 6 feet above it. So a couple of chain link does not reach the dike. Also, if you take a leader fall, you and the rope go down past the dike, and the rope crosses the dike, unless you put 7 foot runners on every bolt, and hang the belay down below the dike as well. I don't know how serious the rope cutting concern is, but other ways around it are having a second lead rope or a thicker lead rope.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Just get out there and "improve" the sharp edge with a hammer until it is not so sharp. Heck, that's what they would do in France, no???
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Doug,
>> Doug, I'm curious why you didn't put it up ground up, then add bolts later.
> For the same reason I'm never going to do the paralled pitches of Southern Belle, much as I would love the climbing: too deadly.
>The choices before us seemed, to us, to be:
> 1. Death Route
> 2. Rap Bolting
> 3. Leave it for the Future
Could you answer his original question? It is a combination of 1 and 2 - maybe you are lumping it in with 2?
I.e. bolt it on lead, then if a particular pitch is too deadly for later parties (elitist in your view), add bolts to it (on rappel). Does this sort of combination seem pointless to you / same as 2?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Re: Karma - to this casual observer the rope cutting potential looks deadly serious and repeatedly, if not continuously, so.
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hafilax
Trad climber
East Van
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I think everything that can be said has been said until someone puts up a second slab finish on lead. DR stated that the line they took was way down on the list of the most obvious. Would someone leading it out pick the same line? Doubtful. Seems to me that there is still plenty of room for someone else to lead out another line to the top. Everyone's talking like there's only one line on a slab.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Clint,
Thanks for putting lines on the photo. Helps us all.
The line for Growing Up is pretty right-on, except that it jogs back right a bit sooner above the arch. And of course the angle of the photo makes it look closer in the arch section to the line of the old South Face than it really is.
Karma: I still think that the chain or wire extension would work to get the clip-in below that Ginsu-knife edge, even if some of them had to be six feet long. And you bet I'd use a fat rope. Or two.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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i am still curious if DR would have issues with another party rapping and drilling an entier route on the SFHD.???
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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“ ..If we left it for the future, then two possibilities: Either someone else would put it up as a death route, even further monopolizing this wall toward an elite minority, or emerging technology would shift the balance. So maybe Gecko Foot™ Rubber or, say, Suction Cup™ Pro to the rescue. In that case, BFD, the whole game is changed forever and we all get to rant about it on some future thread… “
Mr. Robinson, after all you have represented for these many years I am again stunned by your statements. You are basically saying that because this wall is there it should be accessible to more climbers, not just an elite few who can actually do it in good style? Are there not enough routes out there for everyone without bringing down the last great one’s? And your predictions of future improvements in climbing tech are a very weak attempt to justify lowering your standards today. My .02.
You are a well regarded man, and I have enjoyed the couple of times we met which you may or may not recall. At The Needles. Also I compliment you on your level headed participation in this forum, but I am compelled to ask you these questions and challenge you anyway. Carry on.
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