Trump is not good for the U.S. economy.

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John M

climber
Aug 14, 2018 - 05:35pm PT
While certain commodity prises have risen due to tariffs, others have fallen dramatically and will benefit even the poorest of American consumers. The prices of beef, chicken and many grains have fallen and will get to the consumers. In my own business, I am already paying less for the raw ingredients used in the pizzas and pasta.

this is a classic example of what the conservatives claim that they hate. The government taking a major role in deciding who wins and who loses.

Life is sure funny these days.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Aug 14, 2018 - 05:39pm PT
Yes Canadien.

Trouble is ,we Americans,do not have enough softwood ,really, we Need Canada’s lumber.

We do not have enough lumber to sustain the growth we want.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Aug 14, 2018 - 05:47pm PT
That is ok ,tariffs on lumber , not so much.
I thought I may have articulated the differences.

It is not about me.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Aug 14, 2018 - 05:56pm PT
Maybe ,regionally.
John M

climber
Aug 14, 2018 - 06:01pm PT
the pine bark beetle made a lot of the wood unusable. Plus there aren't very many mills left in California. So to process what glut there was, meant shipping it a long way. Not always cost effective.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Aug 14, 2018 - 06:29pm PT
I believe so,adjustments will happen.

I am just hoping the bottom doesn’t fall out.

The worst thing about this is it can only be attributed to one person.
WBraun

climber
Aug 14, 2018 - 06:33pm PT
At the rate you gross materialists are going you'll all soon be living in mud huts and won't be able to use trees anymore ......
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Aug 14, 2018 - 06:39pm PT
Werner,you do realize that trees are renewable and can meet demand with proper management.
Contractor

Boulder climber
CA
Aug 14, 2018 - 06:50pm PT
Werner is not making commentary on the sustainability of timber.

He moonlights here as a life coach to the gross materialist, the insane and the stoopid American by reinforcement of our self loathing.



wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Aug 14, 2018 - 06:59pm PT
I have no problem with Werner,at all .....lol.

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2018 - 07:02pm PT
DMT! You are sounding like a "short-term" fix conservative:

Not a short term fix but given the fire danger as well as the cost of managing forest lands it makes sense to relax logging standards and partner with commercial loggers to create sustainable and less flammable forests and to provide more American lumber to the market.

I sigh for those who spew the rancher & logger propaganda that grazing & logging prevents fire. That's not been proved true, but here's an opinion piece from High Country News, which notes that logging has also tanked in states like Maine, with little public land & few restrictions on logging.

Why is logging dying? Blame the market.

Environmental regulations and endangered species protections are not at fault for Western logging’s decline.

George Wuerthner
OPINION June 15, 2016

Critics of public lands like to say that timber jobs declined and mills closed over the last 20 years because environmental protections such as the Endangered Species Act and other laws made the cost of logging skyrocket. This complaint is repeated so often it is usually stated as unqualified truth.

If you believe the rhetoric, the way federal lands are managed has been the problem. If only there were more private owners of the land, local economies would prosper, and there would be stable, long-term stewardship.
If only that were true. But if you compare the mostly private wood-products industry in the state of Maine to the West’s experiences on public land, you find that environmental regulations had little to do with the demise of logging.

Ninety percent of Maine is forested, and more than 93 percent of the state’s land is privately owned, mostly by large timber companies that sell trees to the wood- products industry. If private lands lead to prosperity and healthy landscapes, Maine should be the poster child for the country. And unlike the West, Maine, imposes minimal regulations on private landowners. There are also almost no listed endangered species in Maine to harry the timber industry.

Yet today, the forest-products industry in Maine is a shadow of its former self. In 1980, there were 25 pulp and paper mills in the state. Today, two-thirds of those mills are gone. Since 1990, the state has lost 13,000 of its approximately 17,000 paper-industry jobs, including more than 2,300 in the past five years.

The decline continues. Associated wood products companies in Maine have also seen a decline – everything from wood furniture, wood flooring and clothespin producers have closed up shop.

The decline in both employment and production in Maine was caused by the same forces that drastically cut forest industry jobs in the West: foreign competition, which brought in cheaper wood products, technological advances and new automation that allowed computers instead of people to run machinery. High energy prices and labor costs also played a role as plastic and steel moved in to replace wood.

Think about the brightly colored plastic Adirondack chairs for sale at Home Depot now replacing the wooden chairs on which they are modeled. Instead of wood rafters, steel-beam has replaced two-by-fours in some construction, and so forth. The decline in newspapers and print materials has also dramatically altered demand for pulp production. All of these factors are affecting the West’s wood industry as much as they affect Maine.

These days, most of the new sawmills and pulp mills built in the United States are in the South. Trees grow faster there, and unlike the Western United States, the can reach harvestable age in a decade or two. To the timber industry, the longer you have to wait to cut trees, the higher the risk. Your trees might die in a forest fire, a beetle outbreak or some other natural event. So locating your mills in places where you can grow a tree to merchantable size quickly is a smart business practice.

Furthermore, most of the Southern timberlands are flat and accessible year-round. In the steep mountains of the West, road construction costs are far greater, and snow limits seasonal access.

So that’s the picture: The decline of the Western wood products industry – like that in Maine – occurred because of economic realities that favor other regions of the globe. Blaming environmentalists, endangered species protection, or environmental regulations is easy. But blame fails to explain a changing world, or help us understand its nuances.

Unlike Maine, the West has an alternative. Its abundant public lands – in particular its wilderness areas, national parks and monuments – provides the foundation for another future for the region. While not all the changes that come with the “new” economy are welcome – take sprawl and increased impacts from recreational users – they can be managed if we make intelligent choices.

https://www.hcn.org/articles/why-is-logging-dying-blame-the-market
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 14, 2018 - 07:10pm PT
It doesn't require much sophistication to see thru the pro logging BS propaganda...But go ahead and keep trying to blame the spotted owl...
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Aug 14, 2018 - 07:23pm PT
Good discussion.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Aug 14, 2018 - 07:28pm PT
I just wish all Americans would stop all the picking on him and see all the good things that President Trump has done.
John M

climber
Aug 14, 2018 - 07:29pm PT
Not a short term fix but given the fire danger as well as the cost of managing forest lands it makes sense to relax logging standards and partner with commercial loggers to create sustainable and less flammable forests and to provide more American lumber to the market.

This is especially true if they are protected from cheaper imports. Ramping that new (or rejuvenated) supply chain up take time of course and it will not provide cost reduction. In otherwords unless the tariffs are rescinded those higher prices on lumber are here to stay.

Timid pointed out that much of California is already systematically logged. The woodlands that aren't logged don't have enough marketable timber. Such as around Redding.

We are going to have to get more aggressive with our management tactics. Thinning, controlled burns, etc.. Thats going to require separating the forest services fire fighting budget, from its management budget.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2018 - 08:25pm PT
DMT! Per your kindly mention:
Notice I didn’t lob an implied insult in your direction, too.
And I thank you!

I suffered two wasp stings on Sunday & had a "severe local reaction," which is not life-threatening, but alarming, when my right leg & arm doubled in size, with some pain along the way. I also had to delay a planned mineral-collecting visit to "deepest" Idaho. Sooo--maybe I'm a little-more grouchy than usual.

I'm going to the "deepest" Idaho tomorrow, since the symptoms have mostly eased.

Here's an opinionated expert’s essay on why more logging won’t stop forest fires.

APRIL 19, 2016
The Myth That Logging Prevents Forest Fires
by GEORGE WUERTHNER

The Forest Service solution to large wildfires is more logging, but this prescription ignores the growing body of scientific research that suggests that logging/thinning/prescribed burning does not work under severe fire conditions.

Why is this important?

Because the vast majority of all fires self-extinguish whether we do anything or not. However, all large fires — the ones that are a threat to communities — burn under what are termed “severe fire weather.” These are fires burning under conditions of low humidity, high temperatures, persistent drought and, most importantly, high winds.

If you get these conditions in the same place as an ignition source, you cannot stop the fire until the weather conditions change. Blazes under such conditions regularly burn through fuel treatments — even clearcuts.

In fact, fuel treatments can even make fire spread quicker by opening the forest to greater drying and wind penetration.

Here’s a small sample of conclusions that cast doubt upon Forest Service policies.

“Finally by current standards, even our best fuel reduction do not appear to be adequate to provide much assistance in the control of high intensity wind-driven fires. If fuel treatment is the answer, it will need to be done on a level that is far more extensive (area) and intensive (fuel reduction) than we are now accomplishing — even on our best fuel breaks.” Source: Wildfire Cast Management

“fuel treatments … cannot realistically be expected to eliminate large area burned in severe fire weather years.” Source: Gedalof, Z., D.L. Peterson and N.J. Mantua (2005). Atmospheric, climatic and ecological controls on extreme wildfire years in the northwestern United States. Ecological Applications 15: 154-174.

“Extreme environmental conditions … overwhelmed most fuel treatment effects…. This included almost all treatment methods including prescribed burning and thinning…. Suppression efforts had little benefit from fuel modifications.”

“It may not be necessary or effective to treat fuels in adjacent areas in order to suppress fires before they reach homes; rather, it is the treatment of the fuels immediately proximate to the residences, and the degree to which the residential structures themselves can ignite that determine if the residences are vulnerable.”

“The majority of acreage burned by wildfire in the US occurs in a very few wildfires under extreme conditions (Strauss et al., 1989; Brookings Institution, 2005). Under these extreme conditions suppression efforts are largely ineffective.”

Source: Objectives and considerations for wildland fuel treatment in forested ecosystems of the interior western United States Elizabeth D. Reinhardt *, Robert E. Keane, David E. Calkin, Jack D. Cohen.


We cannot halt large fires through fuel treatments. The best way to save homes is not by logging more of the forest, but by implementing fire-wise policies in communities that reduces the flammability of homes.

I suspect many in the Forest Service, and especially firefighters, know this, but the agency is continuously under attack from politicians, rural communities, and the timber industry to increase the amount of subsidized timber from federal lands. Fire prevention is the excuse used to justify these sales.

Plus, logging/thinning gives the agency reasonable deniability. When a fire overwhelms firefighting efforts, the Forest Service can always say we did what we could to protect the community.

It is easier to log the forest than face the wrath and accusations from ill-informed community members that if only the FS had logged more, than the “disaster” could have been avoided.

The truth is that the responsibility for avoiding disasters lies not with the Forest Service, but with individual private landowners, and county commissioners who continuously approve new subdivisions in the Wildlands Urban interface.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/04/19/the-myth-that-logging-prevents-forest-fires/
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Aug 14, 2018 - 08:59pm PT
Fritz...that must have hurt..?...This guy i work with , big steve , 6 foot 9 , 300 lbs. , was taking a piss and got stung on the balls by a meat bee...He swelled up and left work to try and impress his wife with the swelling...He's a trump supporter so i think it served him right...?
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 14, 2018 - 09:08pm PT
RJ! I have had too-many mis-adventures with stinging insects.

This short-story, along with 2 other fritz-sting stories, was published in Idaho Magazine.

Here's the link to the article, which you have to pay for, but this is the sickest story. http://www.idahomagazine.com/article/three-stinging-encounters/


Summer of 1986 my Salt Lake City friend Wally came up to Idaho to go fishing and adventuring with me. We drove into the middle of deepest Idaho and reached the small stream that was my secret fishing objective by early evening. Yes! It was the legendary E. Fork of No Tellum Creek. After an hour or so of fishing, it was getting late and it was time to go find a camp spot. The sun had set a while earlier & mountain temperatures were rapidly dropping.

As we were loading our fishing gear into my truck, I noticed a pile of logging slash near the road. I explained to Wally that we should gather some of that wood for a campfire, since it was unlikely that our roadside camp, farther down-canyon, would have any firewood. Since it was almost dark and a little cold, I put on Levis, a heavy canvas shirt, and work gloves, before gathering firewood.

I then climbed onto the pile of slash and started pulling out pieces and tossing them to Wally.

Shortly thereafter, something small flew near my face.

I experienced a sudden chill up my back and a premonition of evil. I then looked down to see what might be happening.

I was black from the belly down with incensed, but cold, hornets that were crawling up me with malice & hate in their demonical little minds, since I had disturbed their nest in the slash pile.

“HORNETS!!” I screamed, as I leaped off the slash pile and started running towards the road (and Wally) while peeling off my shirt and flailing at my torso & pants. About that time the first hornets started stinging me through the shirt and on my head. I blew by the slightly stunned & immobile Wally and started running up the road at just below light speed. (The truck was not an option, since I was still covered with hornets.)

Meanwhile Wally, who didn’t comprehend my startled scream of HORNETS, was standing there in the dark, trying to figure out what was going on. He later told me that the only thing he could think was: at long last, Fritz had finally gone insane.

About that time the first hornet stung him.

Wally rapidly caught up with me and we both ran about 100 yards up the road in the dark, slapping and getting stung, cursing and screaming: until we felt safe again.

The sting toll was surprisingly low. I had been stung about a dozen times on my head and back. Wally had about half that many stings. It had been too cold for the hornets to be a killing threat to us.

I do have a mild allergy to bee-stings. I worried the abundance of stings might set off an allergic reaction that could be deadly to me, but the closest medical clinic was over 2 hours away on mostly gravel roads. Instead of panicking, I ate a couple Benadryl tablets to hopefully quell any allergic reaction.

We drove to camp, cooked some steaks, drank a lot of red wine, and felt much better. And, I didn’t wake up choking for breath, or dead.

It wasn’t funny at the time.

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 14, 2018 - 09:09pm PT
The automation of logging has not helped the logger. When corporations sold expensive equipment that allowed more lumber to be cut and moved loggers loved it. All they had to do was cut more trees to pay for the equipment. Does not take a Nobel laureate to see the problem with that strategy. Farming is another example of scaled up operations. however studies have shown that the Amish way is far more efficient at the end of the day.
John M

climber
Aug 14, 2018 - 09:34pm PT
Wawona has had a lot of fuel reduction done around it in the form of thinning and controlled burns. In the last 2 years there have been two fires that have directly threatened Wawona. The Ferguson fire just now, and one last year. During the Ferguson fire there were a few days with extreme conditions. Fires were spotting up to a mile away. The area the fire spotted into had burned recently, (controlled fire in one area, natural fire in another. The Fire crews were able to control those spot fires. So there are uses for thinning and for controlled burns. There are also times when little will stop a fire.

I believe we still need to do thinning, because it does help in some situations. We also need to do controlled burns, because those also help in many situations. One area of the Ferguson fire went out on its own because it met an area that had burned 2 years ago.
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