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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Sep 23, 2013 - 09:24pm PT
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Here in the US, the bolt was considered something to limit at all cost up till about 1982 (JL)
You need to be area-specific, youngster.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 23, 2013 - 09:32pm PT
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Bolting Bob tell us how you got your name.
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Sep 23, 2013 - 09:36pm PT
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This is turning into a funny South Park episode
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 23, 2013 - 09:48pm PT
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John Kelly wrote: Bolting Bob tell us how you got your name.
Is that all you got? You lost the discussion...Donni handed you your ass and you are to dumb to know it.
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Sep 23, 2013 - 09:54pm PT
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I've never climbed anything of note, I hang my head like my sac
In this thread, you've heard from a lot of good people, a lot of much more-that-solid climbers, who haven't been too shy to share their perspectives. Throughout all of this--for the most part--you know exactly who you were listening to.
Empty One... Yeah, you! Behind your version of a Cloak of Darkness, you have been hiding all this time. Exactly who are you, and why should we respect or value your anonymous opinions? Frightened of a little exposure? Not willing to summon the mental fortitude?
Hell, you've got even less courage than Lois. Stick up for what you believe, MT1. Drop the mask.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 23, 2013 - 10:33pm PT
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
Sep 23, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
John Kelly wrote: Bolting Bob tell us how you got your name.
"Is that all you got? You lost the discussion...Donni handed you your ass and you are to dumb to know it."
The majority of the posters on this thread do not support retrobolts. The vast majority of the younger crowd, the one who'll be around after your done, do not support retrobolts. It's not hard to figure out. So... If you did so many hard ground up routes why isn't it Bold Bob or Brave Bob? Like I said before it's Bolting Bob for a reason. Tell us how you got to be known as Bolting Bob.
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Sep 23, 2013 - 10:36pm PT
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"The initial style should be respected but only to an extent. If a 5.13 climber puts up a 5.8 route with one bolt....retro bolting is legitimate.....just use the common sense rule. "
From the most legit hard-core climber on the site, and a former AAC President. Nothing puts this whole discussion into better perspective than that.
Alternatively, why not add more bolts while on lead from the ground-up? You'd still get sh#t from some, but it might be more justifiable. Check first with the FA party...
Jim's seen enough controversy to know that you can't satisfy everyone. Especially with a crowd like the AAC.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 23, 2013 - 10:52pm PT
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John wrote: The majority of the posters on this thread do not support retrobolts. The vast majority of the younger crowd, the one who'll be around after your done, do not support retrobolts.
What world do you live in? Instead of making claims you can't back up, show me proof.
You keep on trying to make this about me..it's not. You got your ass handed to you by a 70 year old man back on page one.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 23, 2013 - 10:56pm PT
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At least I can count. You must have f*#ked up a lot of rock with your power tool to get a name like that. Tell us the story Bolting Bob
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 23, 2013 - 11:01pm PT
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Jkelly wrote: At least I can count. You must have f*#ked up a lot of rock with your power tool to get a name like that. Tell us the story Bolting Bob
You are done and you know it. You took the hook, line and sinker and you got nothing left. Really funny.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 23, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
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Typical right wing hillbilly thinking from John Kelly...make up your own facts.
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stormeh
climber
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Sep 23, 2013 - 11:46pm PT
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For what it's worth, I've read this entire thread, am young by ST standards (I think, 33 years old,) been climbing 8 years, and I am not a hard climber ... but do not support retro bolting of the classics. I believe the FA "rule," "law," or whatever you want to call it to be the fairest way to maintain climbs of any style.
To not calculate risk as part of the climbing "game" is ridiculous. Some climbs are more risky than others. It's part of their allure, charm, and reverence. I have seen many runout climbs that I have chosen not to attempt because of their nature (these are low grades mind you) ... and have told myself I would come back to attempt them when I was stronger, and have.
The sense of accomplishment on doing these climbs was far more than any clip-up. I don't want to be robbed of this feeling because all climbs are "made safe." As has been mentioned in this thread, there are enough climbs to go around. Those that are run and bold, those that are sporty and safe. Of all grades, these climbs can exist without alteration.
A couple months ago I was on Serpentine at Suicide...not technically an R route but still fairly run by today's standards, and I was near my limit. I chose to do the route after viewing it from below, making a risk decision, and came out feeling like a champ. I don't want that feeling taken from me by added bolts and turning it into any other tame (by pro standards) sport climb.
Even though I am perhaps a 5.9 climber ... climbing 2 grades below my ability (as has been mentioned by Hedge) when runout is still at my limit, because mental fortitude factors into climbing as much or more than physical talents. I once took a gym climber I knew who climbed V7 at the gym onto Fote Hog in Josh (5.6) and he took 3 falls at the crux because of mental issues, no joke. Could he pull the moves? Of course! He climbs the equivalent of 5.13 in the gym! But the mental game was not there for him and that's a very real reality on rock...one that can't be replicated in the gym but one that is very appealing to many people.
Let's not retro-bolt. There's enough climbs to go around. Respecting FA party seems the best idea to me, even as a relatively young noob. If you want sporty clip-ups, which many do, establish your own. There's enough rock out there if you look for it.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 23, 2013 - 11:51pm PT
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When's the last time an F1 driver died in a race?
This is another example that simply does not correlate to what we are taking about. Kindly list those who have died on run out face climbs that we have been mentioning??
JL
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 24, 2013 - 12:20am PT
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Sep 24, 2013 - 12:37am PT
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To this point:
Hedge - wants a few seldom done routes "updated" to offer more terrain, but was willing to stir the pot to get to this point.
Bobby D - suggests that no bolts be added to existing classics.
Largo - wants the bold test pieces that test the mind to stand as such.
Muir - calls for leaving routes as is excepting updating fixed gear in situ.
Compton - wants everything modern and predictable.
Accomozzo - don't let the past remind us of what we are not now...
MT666 - climbs around in the alpine and is trying to grok FA ethics.
JKelly - is really busy chasing unlimited serious terrain where bolting and fixed gear are essentially non-issues.
ALL - discussing the same topic as it pertains different arenas, regions,and in some ways... different sports.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 24, 2013 - 01:10am PT
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And here, it's in the 50's, gray, and blowing hard. Everything conspires to remind us.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:26am PT
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Toddd Eastman - reads 20 posts and thinks he can over generalize and stereotype.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 24, 2013 - 10:02am PT
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Here's what NCNP has to say about it in Directors Orders #41
The establishment of bolt-intensive face climbs, such as “sport climbs,” is considered incompatible with wilderness preservation and management due to the concentration of human activity which they support, and the types and level of impacts associated with the development of such routes.
Wilderness climbing education and impact monitoring will be important components in climbing management programs.
http://www.americanalpineclub.org/uploads/mce_uploads/Files/PDF/NPS-Bolting-DO41-external1.pdf
"Clean climbing" techniques should be the norm in wilderness. This involves the use of temporary equipment and anchors that can be placed and removed without altering the environment (e.g. slings, cams, nuts, chocks, and stoppers).
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 24, 2013 - 10:18am PT
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Sep 23, 2013 - 09:12pm PT
"Kindly list those who have died on run out face climbs that we have been mentioning??"
I was referencing this...
"So what kind of real sportsman seeks to change longstanding rules to simply achieve the same levels of excellence, but a little bit easier, with a little less risk, and with a hell of a lot less commitment? "
And if this kind of risk isn't present on the run-outs you're so hell-bent on preserving, than why do you insist that anyone who doesn't see the point in preserving them is too scared to do them? Because we're too scared to take leader falls onto bolts on face routes? Really? You really think that?
Why, then, pray tell, was there the imperative on these FA's that "the leader must not fall" if there were no mortal consequences? Because you didn't trust your own bolts?
The point is, Joe, that your argument hinges on saving the folks who would otherwise perish on routes, but there are no statistics suggesting that people perish on these routes at all. People take whippers, but so what? There are no facts suggesting that these routes are anything but self regulating, meaning only those who can do them, ever try them.
Based on those facts, what you are asking for is for the few run out routes out there to be available to all?
You can't do the same in big wave surfing which is what makes it great. You hae to rise to the size, as they say. Or not. Now wants to make that big wave available for everyone - because we can.
Really, Joe. And this is sportsmanship? Who said that risk is not part of climbing? It's been that way for two centuries.
JL
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