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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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splitter-cool gotcha
For me I suppose the point in all this (whichever thread one chooses along these lines) is not whether one set of beliefs is right or wrong. The point is what you believe in, because your beliefs, whether right or wrong, change your world...
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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The point is what you believe in, because your beliefs, whether right or wrong, change your world...
Well, I guess that is surely true, but it seems to me that what's going on here is not that people have different beliefs but that certain beliefs ARE wrong, incorrect, biased, ignorant. . . .
What gets highlighted for me is not which beliefs are X, but the persistent and unyielding need criticize and prioritize beliefs. Put another way, what's interesting is not the flavor of beliefs but their apparent over-arching importance. Why don't we feel so strongly about colors, hobbies, jobs, fields of study, height, etc.? The War of Beliefs is a War of Ideologies. Really? We are willing to spew venom and bile over ideologies? Capitalism vs. Socialism? Islam vs Christianity? Democracy versus Monarchy? These are Just Ideas, and as such are really nothing at all. It's not like some large, slimy, ugly cockroach-looking vermin, called socialized medical care, is pounding through my front door in order to feast on me and my wife tonight. (A good story though for a Swim cartoon or a Monty Python episode.)
Come on. It's really a little nuts, isn't it?
It's not that we have beliefs but that we love them so. We need them. Without them, we'd be . . . .
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Delhi Dog - The point is what you believe in, because your beliefs, whether right or wrong, change your world... So true!
edit: BTW, you may recall the time you checked me (thadood) on my over exuberance in hearing of OBL death. It caused me to pause, ponder and consider all the negative things I had said and felt. And you were right, I was out of line to some degree. You sent me a PM apologizing, and I believe I sent you one back saying something to the effect that there was no rejoicing in heaven over his death, and I was wrong to be doing exactly the opposite here on earth. In fact, I believe it was a very sad moment in heaven, because he was once a little boy, just like us at one time. God loved him then, and he never stopped loving him, even though something went terribly wrong, imo! So, my "point" is, communication is what this is all about. It may not seem like it by reading some of these posts, but every once in a while something clicks, eh? Thanks again DD!!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I think all of us inherit belief systems that we remain unaware of most of our life, particularly if they were tolerant and abstract. I would hope however, that we would be willing to alter these beliefs and those we formed on our own in the face of new experiences and evidence. I certainly strive to do that.
One of the best ways to come to understand what one's basic belief structure, and a fun way too, is to live in a very different culture and learn a language that is totally unrelated to one's mother tongue. We used to be told as graduate students that it was not a bad idea to have some psychoanalysis under one's belt before doing fieldwork in another culture. Otherwise, our research subjects would bring about self analysis anyway.
For the very early childhood programming, I know of no other method as effective as meditation.
Religion is adopting a particular structure for one's understanding of the world. Science is similar in most ways, although it can be subject to testing by anyone. Spirituality, is a form of internal travel whereby the outcome is unknown ahead of time.
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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As the conversation wandered into issues of what is right and wrong, etc., evaluations and ethics arose. This is good, that is bad, this is correct, that is incorrect, Obama is right, Romney is wrong, helping old women across the streets is good, murdering 7 million Jews is bad, yada yada. The evaluations are meaningful as speech acts, but they stand for nothing . . . . just like particles, gravity, and centrifugal force. They are terms that purportedly reference reality as speech acts, but the objects referenced do not independently exist. They are in the universe but they refer to nothing if they refer to objects in the universe.
I don't agree that these "evaluations are meaningful as speech acts, but they stand for nothing. .. " The universe is ONE and we and everything in it are a part of that ONE. But we are still parts, living, breathing, thinking, feeling parts. We all together, with everything else in this cosmic soup, make up the ONE. But we are still individuals. The fact that we are part of something bigger than ourselves doesn't negate the fact that if you throw a rock and it hits me in the head (an analogy I've made before)I know that it's going to hurt before it happens, as it happens, and after it's still going to hurt and it will only reinforce the reality, my reality, that if I get hit in the head with a rock in the future it will hurt. That is reality.
It seems like some take thoughts, ideas, and words especially, and parse them in an attempt to understand the big picture and make sense of what "reality" is and in that attempt walk toward a cliff and fall off claiming that there is no "reality". I assure you, it really does hurt if a rock hits me in the head.
Why don't we feel so strongly about colors, hobbies, jobs, fields of study, height, etc.? The War of Beliefs is a War of Ideologies. Really? We are willing to spew venom and bile over ideologies? Capitalism vs. Socialism? Islam vs Christianity? Democracy versus Monarchy? These are Just Ideas, and as such are really nothing at all. It's not like some large, slimy, ugly cockroach-looking vermin, called socialized medical care, is pounding through my front door in order to feast on me and my wife tonight. (A good story though for a Swim cartoon or a Monty Python episode.)
These are all just ideas, I agree. But unlike colors, heights or hobbies (jobs and fields of study do engender some strong reaction as evidenced by posts on this forum), much of the examples you gave above DO have direct implications on individuals living with or under them. They are just "ideas" on the surface but they have far reaching consequences in their implementation. That, I think, is why there is a reaction to those vs. color etc.
As for your example of socialized medical care (or whatever else might serve) if it became more than an "idea" and was implemented and in that implementation caused you and your wife to fork over say 90% of your income would it then become more than an "idea". Would it cause a reaction of "good" or "bad" in you or for you?
Sean
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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I've enjoyed reading and digesting the last 5 or so post, thanks...gives me food for thought.
Cheers
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Spirituality, is a form of internal travel whereby the outcome is unknown ahead of time.
spirituality: state or condition of spirit
spirit: the net total functionality of the living organism
Only religions and their nonsense makes a mess of these terms. "Ghostly" spirit is misconception if not superstition. There is no "ghost in the machine." Which is the implication (even the claim) of modern science.
When you write like this, you fail to distinguish yourself from the blues or splitters or other illusiondwellers. Or MikeL or even this guy...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/08/charlie-fuqua-arkansas-candidate-death-penalty-rebellious-children_n_1948490.html
At the end of our lives, we die. Our carnate spirit dies. Our being dies. Our conscious spirit (or consciousness) dies. Just deal with it. Why not just deal with it. For reality sake.
.....
In this recent Sam Harris piece, he addresses death, the power of now, aspects of "consciousness," also the importance of a change of attitude (not just of knowledge) in one's practice of living.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITTxTCz4Ums
He is spot on.
.....
Now one mental faculty we have of course is our imagination if not our train of thought (power of thinking). One could certainly employ this power as "a form of internal travel" - no woo-woo required either. Indeed, we climbers often do just this before embarking on a climbing trip, envisioning and tracing out in our minds approaches, pitches, various options, strategies, etc. And some times "the outcome" is accurately predicted, other not.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Fructose
I truly hope one day you will experience the Holy Ghost. It is supernaturally life changing
It is definitive proof for me that God hears prayers.
I think being spiritual is being conscience of your spirit. And living your life being aware of the spirits around you. All of our interactions with each other are very important so much that they're being recorded. Do you think an ominous God creator of the universe would be interested in our talk of climbing or the stock exchange? His concern is the welfare of our spirit
I live with a wonderful peace of mind knowing that I am guaranteed everlasting life. For I have great respect for everyone and everything around me. because there's many I will know forever. So I till, plant seeds, fertilize and waterTo provide for an everlasting future.
Jus Water'in
BB
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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First fructose invents his own definitions and then feels the need to compare people who have a different interpretation to fanatics of various sorts, portraying many different views as equivalent. There must be a special vocabulary term for someone who can never see subtleties or shades of gray and feels the need to personally attack those who don't agree. To me this seems the essence of fundamentalism which he says he abhors. A perfect example in my view of someone who hasn't yet overcome childhood programming.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Blue,
It would be futile to ask you to post to the Christian or religious thread, huh? and to leave this one to the irreligious, post-religious?
.....
Jan, the paranormalist,
Your post is laughable.
So I would ask you the same question. There are paranormalist / supernaturalist threads at the taco, why not post to those?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Word, Dr. F.
"We have barely emerged from centuries of barbarism. It is not a surprise that there are shocking inequities in this world. It is hard work to climb down out of the trees, walk upright, and build a viable global civilization when you start with technology that's made of rocks and sticks and fur. This is a project and progress is difficult."
-Sam Harris
There must be a special vocabulary term for someone who...
...who declares far and wide she's looked "under the hood" of "the machinery of life" from all angles again and again and again - and yet still after all that just doesn't get it - not in the fundamentals nor the subtleties.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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if you guys go back and read the contributions on this page, most of us were talking about conditioning and biases in all aspects of life. Religion was not the focus. Yet because you have preconceived ideas of other's positions, you then jump to the attack. You're tilting at windmills. A good case in point is assuming that meditation and internal journeys have to involve the supernatural.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Yeah well I was an atheist for almost 40 years!
I've been around the block a few times
Probably on the lower side of town from where you live
Hard knocks, we all get them
It just became blatant to me that there had to be more to life
So I went seeking. Maybe you're the one still living under your parents wings.
A product of society.
Maybe sitting there in your La-Z-Boy. In your fancy house. And your pimp Mobile
And your 9 to 5 with pension. You're comfortable and feel like you have life by the tail.
But let me tell you sir. YER GONNA DIE!!
We'll see how comfortable you are then
Jus Recline'in
BB
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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That's the saddest propaganda I've ever witnessed
I am praying for you
Jus Pray'in
BB
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Stzzo
I read the short summary you pointed to in Forbes. Thanks. (I tried to get access to the actual article in Nature Neuroscience, but I can't find it in the university's library. Forbes must have flubbed the citation.)
About research studies. One, when people use words like maybe, perhaps, could be, and make reference to correlations or associations, they are--as Werner would say--mentally speculating. That's ok by me, but let's be careful about saying what we know. Two, with only associations (i) causality is confounded, and (ii) it is doubtful that any model can be drawn. We simply don't know which variables to use or how to arrange them or what weights to assign.
My argument is that they they choose [an action] because they want what comes from it. Whether the reward is dopamine, oxytocin, or a satisfaction that they're treating the other as they would like to be treated, they are doing it because they get something from it.
Ok. Where does "the event" happen? In the physics of transferred charges among neurons? Chemically, when dopamine is produced or found? When a confabulation of neurons in a neural net reach critical mass and generates a pattern that is recognized or portrays an interpretation of "satisfaction?" When the ego-self chooses to reach for an altruistic goal rather than forego it self-interestedly? When the result is achieved (many of the same processes)? When the situation was formed (by God, for all I know) and the individual found him or herself in the situation? I mean, it's potentially a very long line of events, scenarios, variables, and processes.
(We can disagree about reality and culture. People around me who make physical scientific (e.g., biochemical) claims about the world think there is only one to talk about.)
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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slayton
The universe is ONE and we and everything in it are a part of that ONE.
Not a part. There are no parts of One. How could there be? I mean, really, think about it. How can any single object have parts? If you had a car, and I deleted one piece at a time, at what point would there no longer be a car for you? Are some parts the essence of car more than others? If so, then they are the car and the others are superfluous? (This is an old but important riddle about emptiness. There's no answer to it, but it shows how no thing can be itself independently. Everything is the result of causes and conditions which are forever changing. IT's a dance.)
But I get your point. Really I do. Some things DO seem more important than others because they seem to give rise to pain and suffering more than others. I just got out of the hospital for major surgery a few days ago, and I Grok Pain, brother. It seems as real to me as anything could. But in my heart (not my head), I think it's just something that I'm paying attention to--just an idea, a perception, a passing fancy, a feeling, . . . . I think it's just something that I'm making much ado about. I'm tempted to say it's nothing.
As for forking over 90% of my income due to an idea, then I might look at it in the same way. Given the recent result of my surgery (healthy, mission accomplished), I'm likely to see it as relatively minor when looking at the big picture I see today.
Hell, I don't know. Talk is cheap, isn't it?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Oct 10, 2012 - 02:55pm PT
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My Father is the Universe,
basking in self-reflection,
as principle, harmony, and self awareness.
I am
A Universal statesman.
I rove among the stars.
And I and my Father are One.
The One I revere is Nature.
My Father's wife, for She
Brings forth all living beauty.
And we three are One.
I am come into this world with
A purpose, to live and teach
The ever-present law and Love.
The law I live by and teach is
The Golden Rule,
"Do unto others as you would
That they do onto you,"
and thereupon are founded my
Inner statues, my thoughts,
Words and deeds, even unto my
Practice of conservation and
Economy, gentleness and
Forgiveness.
The prayer I pray is
"That I have little,
Yet need naught."
I travel light,
"Silver and gold have I none,
But of what I have,
Give I thee."
My love is the ready gift of
My suit of clothes before they
Are worn out, for
"No greater love hath a man,
Than that he would lay down
His life for his friends."
And when I go, I leave behind
Me a sucess, a house in order,
And my suit of clothes.
I know not my next destination,
Nor really care for I like
Surprises.
but I do know that forever,
There will I find another
Challenge, a smile, a cool
Drink of water, and a little
More love of life, or the
opportunity to give these
Things and give them more
Abundantly.
And whoever shall walk this
Path of his own free choice,
And teach others to do
Likewise, the same shall be
Lord over his own house, and
A lord over his Father's
Mansion.
H. Van Dyke
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splitter
Trad climber
Cali Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Oct 10, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
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...and jealousy over women!
Sure, blame it on the gals!
Some things never change, eh? lol
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 10, 2012 - 11:05pm PT
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HFCS
I was there in that jungle hundreds of miles where no whitey man is allowed.
They were the most mellow people I've witnessed. What's the point?
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