Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 02:04am PT
|
You can never tell what the hell a jury is seeing - especially with the kind of dummies they would have to dredge up to fill this jury. At least there's something we can all agree on!
Did you see the testimony that Zimmerman's clothes were wetter on the back than on the front and had grass strains on the back (and not the front)?
Seems like that is objective proof of what was happening--Trayvon was on the top, beating the crap outta Zimm. Did Zimm deserve it? In some sense maybe yes, but legally, Zimm had the right to defend himself at that point.
What we each think of Rachel Jeantel's testimony is a good Rorschach test (I stole that metaphor from other ST posters on a different thread).
Obese, illiterate, uneducated, lying-under-oath (that's admitted), racist, moron?
Earthy, blue collar, trustworthy friend?
Both? (Hard to say neither.) Good stuff either way, she's one reason why this is a fascinating trial.
Edit:
It didnt seem bad - the creepy ass, skeletor, defence attorney badgered the sh#t out of her..
pathetic...
not a likable guy at all. Dont't you mean creepy cracker ass? :)
|
|
mountainlion
Trad climber
California
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 03:28am PT
|
Rsin (I don't agree with all of your posts on this or other threads) but you bring up a valid point...
How did the cops not question Zimmerman, how is there no shining a light in his eyes for pupil dilation or drug use???
How was his father allowed to participate as if he was part of the investigation??
and Rsin is right it is sad that someone who didn't believe in himself enough to follow his dreams (zimmerman) is alive, while a young man who had a bright future is dead (Trayvon)...
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 10:50am PT
|
When they do a toxicology on the dead black kid and not the guy who shot him... Lets take a saw and just cut out Florida all together like an ice flow.
|
|
FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 11:00am PT
|
A few years back (1984?) we had a guy pull a gun on one of us at Stoney Point. He picked the wrong person. Jim the man that had the gun pulled on him took it away smacked the guy in the face with it then drug him to the phone booth over at the horse ranch & called the police.
|
|
TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 12:59pm PT
|
In every jurisdiction, you're allowed to use deadly force to defend yourself against a threat of serious bodily harm
ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE!
Most jurisdictions allow the use of deadly force ONLY AS A LAST RESORT, the mere threat of harm is not enough. If there are other reasonable options available, use of deadly force is a crime.
The whole point of "stand your ground" is to make your claim true, but Florida goes a step more by permitting deadly force to defend against the mere perceived threat of harm, even non-serious harm.
It's ideas like yours that get people killed, innocent and guilty.
TE
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
|
TE, let's make this concrete by looking at the law in a specific jurisdiction. Since this is ST, let's use California, a nice big blue state where many of the ST posters live. You can't accuse me of cherry picking an evil red state having an unfairly broad right to self defense.
As with most legal issues, complications can certainly arise, and my short statement above could be overly simplistic in some cases.
I meant my statement the context of the TM case: in every jurisdiction, where some guy has you pinned on your back and is in the process of repeatedly punching you and slamming your heard into the ground, it is justifiable self-defense for you to shoot the guy.
Agree?
Anyway, everyone can read the CA statute and draw his or her own conclusions. There are other relevant laws too-Section 198 basically says the person relying on self defense must be acting on the basis of a reasonable fear, i.e., it isn't self defense if you have an insane delusion that someone is trying to kill you. FL SYG essentially has the same requirement.
California Penal Code Section 197
Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
|
Oh and one more thing.
I actually agree with TE's post for the most part--for example, the use of deadly force must be reasonable, which implies that you can't use deadly force if there are alternatives. (There didn't appear to be alternatives in the TM case, but my statement was overly broad.)
But it looks like TE misunderstands FL's "stand your ground law."
It clearly does not apply "against the mere perceived threat of harm, even non-serious harm."
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
|
|
Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 02:13pm PT
|
I'm mystified at the version of Trayvon (140 lbs) getting on top in a ground scuffle, giving Mr Zimmerman (200 lbs.) a serious brawling...that is, Trayvon being that strong and quick in a close wrestling struggle yet be unmindful of`Zimmerman striving to fetch a gun and focus the barrel on him...
...and no trace of blood was found where George Zimmerman claimed Trayvon had thrashed his head against the sidewalk and no marks on his face in videos taken after the incident.
The witness, Selene Bahadoor, said she thought she heard running and yelling, looked out her sliding glass door and saw two figures standing with arms flailing...turning away momentarily, she heard a shot and looked out, seing a body face down in the grass..
George Zimmerman was carrying a gun, against dictates of neighborhood watch...
Trayvon Martin, the supposed prowler/burglar, was carrying a sack of candy...
|
|
Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 02:51pm PT
|
Sadly, Locker, it's derogatory term used in reference to people of Asian descent...saidto have been coined during the Korean war by frontline troops who had run over enemy troops in jeeps.
|
|
mountainlion
Trad climber
California
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 03:12pm PT
|
Read in the paper two witnesses claim that Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon and one witness who was zimmermans friend said Trayvon was on top...but it was raining so I don't know what to think about witness testimony...
Zimmerman also was taking a mixed martial arts class learning how to fight both standing up and on the ground...given his weight advantage it is difficult for me to believe he was losing the fight...
I think it is just as plausible he took an opportunity to kill someone on purpose since he had access to legal discussions around the house...just speculating...
|
|
TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
|
I guess we generally agree, and I do stand corrected on my misunderstanding, but I'm even more worried about those laws state it is acceptable to use deadly force to prevent a felony, possibly one not even involving bodily harm at all.
The wording of that paragraph is just pure contradiction anyhow, if retreat is a possibility (although not required), then use of force cannot be necessary.
SYG will continue to perform its intended function; to sell more guns, because it certainly does nothing to make anyone safer.
TE
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
|
Jennie, with all due respect, it sounds like you're only vaguely familiar with the case and have some significant misunderstandings.
Trayvon wasn't 140 pounds. According to the autopsy, Travon was 5'11 and weighed 158 lbs. If you hang out with climbers, you'd know that high-level climbers of that height weigh substantially less than that. The pictures I've seen of Trayvon show an athletic young man.
Let's just say that an athletic 17-year old of that size is not at all a small person. On the contrary, that's the size of a good fighting machine.
Zimmerman, on the other hand, is a 5'7'' tub of goo (about 200 pounds then). Not 200 lbs of rock hard muscle. He's just a pudgy little guy. If you believe in the Napoleon Complex, he'd be a good exhibit.
It's not surprising that Zimmerman was getting his ass beat.
Let me add a personal detail--I'm a 5'7'' middle-aged white guy. The idea that I'd go up to a much taller, athletic-looking black teenager (or white teenager for that matter) to engage him in a fistfight is just preposterous. (I do have some muscle from years of climbing and lifting, but still.)
Also, it's not in dispute that Zimm had bleeding lacerations to the back of his head. They weren't huge, but they're entirely consistent with having his head slammed into the ground. It's also not in dispute that Zimm and TM were on the ground, with one on top of the other (although it's very much in dispute as to who was on top--of course it's possible that either were on top at different times.)
Hope this clears up a few things, please let me know if you have other Qs--I've followed the case pretty closely so may be able to answer. Headed out to do some running and climbing now (if it doesn't rain) but I'll check back later.
Edits:
TE--I do think we generally agree on Flordia SYG -- I think it's poorly worded and irresponsible, and the "regular" law of self-defense (which, as I understand it, authorizes use of deadly force only when there is no reasonable alternative, seems fine).
From ML
Zimmerman also was taking a mixed martial arts class learning how to fight both standing up and on the ground...given his weight advantage it is difficult for me to believe he was losing the fight...
I think it is just as plausible he took an opportunity to kill someone on purpose since he had access to legal discussions around the house...just speculating... Perhaps you too don't know the actual sizes of TM and Zimm. If you really think an athletic 5'11 158 pound guy is at a disadvantage against a 5'7'' butterball, I'm guessing you haven't spent much time with athletes?
Here's my pet theory: Zimm took some MMA classes and thought that made him a bad ass. Kind of like how some kids take karate classes and think they're tough, until they find out about 5 seconds into a fight that the karate stuff ain't working as advertised!
But that's all sort of irrelevant to the big picture--since you admit that various scenarios are plausible and we're just speculating as to what happened, I suppose that means you agree Zimm should be acquitted?
Remember the burden of proof!
|
|
Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
|
Trayvon wasn't 140 pounds. According to the autopsy, Travon was 5'11 and weighed 158 lbs. If you hang out with climbers, you'd know that high-level climbers of that height weigh substantially less than that. The pictures I've seen of Trayvon show an athletic young man.
Let's just say that an athletic 17-year old of that size is not at all a small person. On the contrary, that's the size of a good fighting machine.
Zimmerman, on the other hand, is a 5'7'' tub of goo (about 200 pounds then). Not 200 lbs of rock hard muscle. He's just a pudgy little guy. If you believe in the Napoleon Complex, he'd be a good exhibit.
Thanks for the information, Blahblah.
My dad was a wrestling coach...my brothers were multi-sport athletes. That doesn't render me an authority on street fighting, to be sure. But I've rarely seen long, lanky wrestlers throw thicker grapplers of their own weight around with ease...
Calling Trayvon "athletic" may be appropriate in some context. Favoring him to prevail in a ground struggle with an individual 40 or 50 pounds heavier who took part in mixed martial arts workouts three times a week takes some imagination.
Whatever happened in the clash, it seems obvious Mr Zimmerman chose to carry a gun and elected to confront TM knowing the outcome could become deadly.
|
|
mountainlion
Trad climber
California
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
|
Blah Blah I haven't spent much time around athlete's since I graduated from the University of Kansas where I was an athletic trainer for the 1993-94 Jayhawks (Dana Stubblefield, Gilbert Brown) also performed therapeutic modalities for (Rafe La frenz and Jacque Vaughn--basketball) in addition to all the rest of the non-revenue producing sports that we also treated both men and women---an athlete doesn't have to look like me (check my pics--I'm a mesomorph). They come in all shapes and sizes with all manner of diffent abilities...
Have you ever seen Tony Gwynn (who would guess he would be a Hall of Famer).
Weight is one area tough to overcome for someone smaller unless they are skilled enough to offset the advantage...watching line-men battle at KU I recognized a 290 Lb black dude who was obviously the better athlete repeatedly get his ASS KICKED by a 323 lb white dude (who was an ahole who picked fights with guys like me and my girlfriends--I'm 6'3" 205)...
|
|
FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
|
^^^ maybe it would make a better man out of you if you did.
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
|
(There didn't appear to be alternatives in the TM case, but my statement was overly broad.)
How about the "mind your own f*#king business" alternative? How would that have worked out here? Nobody dead, nobody on trial. Seems like a reasonable alternative.
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 09:41pm PT
|
Weight is one area tough to overcome for someone smaller unless they are skilled enough to offset the advantage...watching line-men battle at KU I recognized a 290 Lb black dude who was obviously the better athlete repeatedly get his ASS KICKED by a 323 lb white dude (who was an ahole who picked fights with guys like me and my girlfriends--I'm 6'3" 205)... ML (and Jennie) -- I think the flaw in your reasoning is that you're thinking about weight class sports like wrestling, mma, and boxing where in general a heavier guy will defeat a lighter guy. But in competitive sports, the participants are all trained athletes with relatively low body fat (except perhaps heavyweights, which isn't relevant here.)
Zimmerman is obviously not a serious athlete; he's an obese butterball (more so now). His relatively high weight is from carrying excess fat, not muscle. Have you seen pictures of the guy? It's also worth noting that he isn't 5'9'' as sometimes reported, he's 5'7''. As a 5'7'' guy myself, I can tell you that's pretty short--not quite a midget, but if you're in a group of guys, you'll often be the shortest. Height is very significant in fighting (not so much wresting, but in stand up, and every street fight starts out standing up). I'd go so far as to say that it isn't correct to call Zimmerman the "bigger" guy. He was heavier, but significantly shorter. And, again, his weight "advantage" came from fat, not muscle, as in the case of real athletes.
There may be some rare exceptions for very muscular and/or trained fighters, but in general, if you're 5'7'', you don't go around picking fights with bigger (substantially taller) guys!
If you'd pick a 5'7'' fat ass to beat up a lighter but athletic 5'11'' guy, well, we'll just have to chalk this one up to seeing it differently.
But please don't make the mistake of thinking that Zimmerman's outweighing Trayvon is similar to a heavier MMA fighter (or wrestler or boxer) versus a lighter MMA fighter, where both fighters are highly trained and have very low body fat percentages.
Gary--I don't disagree you and I won't be shedding a lot of tears if he's convicted, even though I think the "correct" verdict would be not guilty based on what I've seen so far. If Zimmerman testifies, we'll have a lot of new evidence and will need to see how it shakes out.
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 09:42pm PT
|
Imma gonna incite you to violence then imma gonna "STAND MY GROUND"
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
Jun 30, 2013 - 03:12am PT
|
Hi - person that actually grappled before. Weight does matter. I'm a monster on the mat these days but get 50+lbs on me and I won't f*#k with you.
Carry on with the speculation.
|
|
mountainlion
Trad climber
California
|
|
Jun 30, 2013 - 11:15am PT
|
manzanita man do you not get the concept of manifest destiny??
our country's land was stolen from the native peoples who lived here...
the greatest genocide in history was orchestrated and condoned by at least one pope in writing here is the gist of that written decree that declared that god had granted the europeans america "we will hunt, kill, rape, burn, your villages...destroy your crops...etc...this is our land so sayeth GOD" this was a document written to validate the theft of the land and the killing of the indigenous people's who lived here---look it up it is FACT...
the african slaves that labored here for 400 years helped to create an enormous wealth that put us far ahead of other countries by allowing us to utilize the enormous natural resources at our disposal...
the tired, hungry, poor immigrants that arrived here from all nations but predominately european and asian countries also provided a wealth of cheap labor building the best infrastructure the world has ever seen...they fought hard for our Bill of Rights, Labor Laws, and PUBLIC SCHOOLS
YOU didn't create ANY of that
I commend you for what you have done with your life...if your happy with your success then BE HAPPY but don't put down those who have contributed to the success of us all...
By the way zimmerman deserve's a little GROUND and POUND in PRISON in addition to being a "wife" for a few sexually frustrated men...
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|