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BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
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I can't believe you all are having a conversation over the InterDewb with two retarded people.
RH and Pelut.
It's been repeated and confirmed POS line up the Fishers... End of Topic.
Use the time you would reply in gearing up for another climb.....
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Also, did WBraun just get trolled by a Pelut impersonator?
Man, that alone is worth reading the deluge of new posts...
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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You Jensen drill in your own FA! And the you acuse the others to drill. My God, how can you be so stupid!
It's clear you knew what a wood wedge was used for, and a leadhead (you called'em bashies first?), very clear in your own webpage... Come on, run and change it all the information there as you've done with the comments and the pictures!
And yes, wood wedge + piton is a A1 technique as a Pecker is a A1 technique if you place only one and the placement is perfect. As far as you make the holes deeper to place an angle inside, you must belive that a piton is only valid if placed till the eye, don't even know that you can place just some milimeters of the piton and then tight it up with a little cordelette... You even arrive to elocubrate with a special kind of pitons. Sick minded!
And very funny you justify yourself for not have added drilled holes in Intifada and Sea of Dreams (which is now plenty of drilled holes, btw! As far as Yosemite is plenty of foreigners, they must be the blame for that, because american aid-climbers have a very strict ethics) when no one has acused you of that. Is your conscience betraying you?
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Oh, hello Rivet Hanger!
Remember, you are not the pieces. You are the board on which the game is played.
Also, as before, so again, going after Richard will not change peoples' opinion about Pelut, nor will climbing the "racism because foreigner" tree yield much fruit.
If you need a reminder, here's Princess Luna and some swans.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Ha, ha, that sure looks like fun.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Is Steve "Crisher" Bartlett a chicken? He, as Jeremy Aslaksen, places gear about every 20 inches in a A4 pitch...
Meanwhile, Jensen has big bollocks and places bolts and rivets instead of heads and peckers...
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raymond phule
climber
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Did Pelut drill holes and place lead heads in those holes on LOD?
If yes how many such placements did he make?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Richard,
Could you please fix the gallery image links in your blog?
All the links yield blank pages in my browser (google Chrome).
Here is an example:
http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/?gallery=holes-and-rivets
I had to wade in to the post 299 of Sep 21 2012, before I could see any of your photos (the photos rehosted on supertopo).
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1827613&tn=299
Also, the first photos by the apparently real David Palmada "Pelut" (un de tants) are at the bottom of the above page, and his the stacked wood wedge and piton shots are on the next page.
One suggestion (which will be lost in this huge thread) - you could have avoided placing that belay bolt at the base, by using the suggested haulbag full of rocks, and extending that with a spare rope to the base (locking biner on it there). Then you could have still made it past the "hook belay".
Incidentally, the "hook belay" photo shows the hooks up high, but the weight is really on those good deep leadheads/batheads at the next level down - I think everyone could see that without even going onto the route, once they understand what those are (they are not in common use in the USA). It also looks like the highest 2 pieces above Esther but below the hooks are bolt hangers or piton heads. Actually as a staged "sketchy belay" photo, it is not that different from the famous "RURP belay" shot in Yosemite Climber. There the rope goes out of the frame to where the leader/photographer is anchored, probably on solid gear.
The rating? Strange they would rate it harder than Intifada - that appeared to have one legit A4+/A5 pitch, judged by the second and third ascents. Maybe it is much easier now?
I see 3 pitches rated A5 on Pelut's topo. Maybe it seemed harder/scarier doing the FA of those pitches than repeating Beyer's route.
As for the A6+ pitch, maybe the "hook belay" seemed scarier than the anchors on Beyer's route. Or maybe they knew that anchor was good (with all the deep leadheads/batheads they used and later cleaned), and added the hooks to make it look scary. The photo looks that way to me - the hooks are "backup". The lead line goes through them, but just out of the frame is the deep leadhead/bathead seen in the video.
Using the A6+ rating could be seen as simply relative to Beyer's rating of Intifada. So we should not expect it to line up with the accepted aid ratings. The magazine editors did not seem to realize this, though.
Richard's clear topo shows:
900' route.
First 650' - about 280 drilled aid holes on the FA - just a few short crack sections.
Last 250' - follows cracks - only 2 drilled aid holes.
That's kind of a bad ratio of drilling to crack aiding - a lot like Harding's route on the Porcelain Wall. Or the original Dawn Wall up to Wino Tower.
http://www.conclusivesystems.com/danger/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/danger_topo_mine.jpg
So I don't think Pelut and Esther did anything worse in terms of extent of hole ladders than the poorest of Harding's drillfests. Although one could definitely argue the amount of rock removed in their drilling was larger per hole than the equivalent rivet. Apparently they seemed to think that leaving less fixed metal was better and justified the larger holes. The more frequent holes also added to the "impact". It's somewhat encouraging to see that Pelut's newer route uses smaller holes (chiseled/pinned beak slots), although they still have twice the impact they should, due to the short spacing. (This assumes the route is worth the impact in terms of drilled/total pitch lengths - I'd like to see that ratio well under .5). On the other hand, people grid bolt sport crags in America and few people seem to care that the routes could be done with half the bolts....
However, using Harding's worst climbs and grid-bolted sport crags as standards for the extent of hole ladders on hard aid climbs is unacceptable. We would like to see something more challenging than a route where over 70% of the upward progress is from drilled/pinned holes. If you are bold, show me videos of a clean ascent of something like Zodiac or the Muir Wall. If you're really good, don't take a hammer along. If you fancy yourself extreme, try to get up even a pitch or two on Wings of Steel (with no hammer).
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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I agree with Cummins in one aspect. Since photos are not available anymore in Jensen's webpage, people can look at Jensen's and Pelut's pics between 299 and 320 more or less on this thread.
Here some examples of considered drilled holes (or euro bashies according to Lord Jensen terminology; altough he yet knew what a wood wedge and a leadhead was; altough he could even see the saw marks on the wall when wooden wedges are cut at home...) which definetelly aren't:
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Why are all of the cables fubar?
Oh, right, we are not dealing with a journeyman here...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Sorry about the links. A couple of months ago we migrated the whole site to a new server, and my (apparently too superficial) testing indicated that all came across correctly. I'll try to get everything working later today or this evening.
RH, the only response I have left for you is very simple: you keep using veiled language to accuse me of lying. So, let me get clear about what you are really accusing me of lying about. Did I fabricate many-dozens of pictures? Did I drill something like 100 new holes that Pelut didn't drill and then attribute that drilling to him? I'm just curious (in a fascinated horror sort of way) about exactly what you think I did.
I don't lie in any substantive details (no human being can every be 100% objectively accurate on all points). I documented as thoroughly and carefully as I could. And the route is a worthless pile that is not "climbing."
Oh, I forgot one point: Any comparison with Harding's drilling ratios (on his worst climbs) is missing the point. Harding never drilled and then came back and called the result something it was not; and he never overrated his routes by 3-5 number grades and called them the hardest things in the world. Harding was no hack and no pretender!
Had Pelut reported the route as it was, nobody (including me) would have given the thing a second thought: "Guys, there's this new route on the Titan. I call it, 'Look Out; Hole Ladder.' It's a line of large holes, spaced about 18 to 30 inches apart, and you fill the (now somewhat blown out) holes with wooden wedges and particularly-shaped lead-heads. I rate it A3. Pretty cool."
Read THAT (accurate) account of the "route," and Pelut would still have gotten some flack for admitting that basically all he did was drill. But he didn't report THAT, and, unlike Harding, he had the international temerity to rate the heap A6+ and suggest that it was the hardest thing ever done.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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At least he had a hot spinner sub-man.
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pc
climber
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Perhaps they can use some of that 6+ aid to claw back them $2000 euros...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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LOL... I had not realized the underlying nature of RH's (Pelut's) resistance to the truth coming out. There was MONEY (not an insignificant amount) riding on his version of the "route."
Uhh... who is motivated to lie here? Too, too funny.
Great catch, Crunch!
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Hey, aren't those the same people who awarded Monsanto the Global Food Prize?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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That page 106 problem is fixed now. At least, I've tried it in Chrome and Firefox, and it works in both of those now.
Thanks, Clint, for pointing it out!
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