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jogill
climber
Colorado
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What is mind troll?
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Lovegasoline: What sees this?
Ah.
A few millennia of instinct, emotion, narrative, and reason have been working on that question.
Ask Werner.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 1, 2015 - 06:50pm PT
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JG wrote: Alexandra raised the possibility that her experience was illusory: “I may have created my own hallucination.”
This is an interesting statement to ponder, as is Dennett's comment that human experience itself is illusory, that our brain simply tricks us into believing we have an experience, but in fact we do not.
In the first example, citing Alexandra, we understand that John's use of the word "illusory" almost certainly means that it has no physical extent or correlate in the material world. That whatever it was in question existed merely as a mental construct. However staunch physicalists like Dennett conflate the mental with the physical, meaning a hallucination is actually a physical event happening in the brain.
Going further, who is the "I" that "created" the hallucination, and how was that achieved?
Scientists favoring the Copenhagen interpretation of QM might suggest that physical reality is reified by way of an observer (taking a measurement, and here, "measurement" means many things), that there are no forms separate from observation - which ranks amongst the most counterintuitive and "impossible" ideas we've ever heard.
And Dennett's quip - that we don't have actual experience, rather our brain tricks us in believing that we are experiencing our lives.
The obvious questions are: To ever achieve a "real" or actual experience, what would be required? What are the "false' or fraudulent aspects of what I have been hoodwinked into believing is my experience?
What if all forms must exist both in mind and in the physical realm to be "real?"
JL
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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You've all been asleep, you would not believe me.
Them voices tellin' me, you will soon receive me.
Standin' on the beach, the sea will part before me.
(Fire wheels burning in the air.)
And you will follow me and we will ride to glory.
(Way up, the middle of the air.)
And I'll call down thunder and speak the same,
And my word fills the sky with flame,
And might and glory gonna be my name,
And men gonna light my way....
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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JG wrote: Alexandra raised the possibility that her experience was illusory: “I may have created my own hallucination.” . . . we understand that John's use of the word "illusory" almost certainly means that it has no physical extent or correlate in the material world . . . (JL)
What in the world have you been drinking, my friend? All I did was cut and paste a couple of paragraphs from Wiki. I didn't write any of that stuff. Didn't you see the italic print?
What if all forms must exist both in mind and in the physical realm to be "real?" (JL)
Electromagnetic fields exist physically and conceptually in our minds although we are not able to directly perceive them, only their effects. Whereas the chair in which I sit exists as a distinct physical form similar to what I see when I look at it. A tulpa in all probability exists only in the mind, although it may appear to exist in the physical sense.
Many years ago I wandered into the tantric realm and attempted to embed the image of a candle's flame (mandala) into my mind, to be able to conjure it up as a visual, seemingly physical entity. I almost achieved it, but gave up for various reasons before it was firmly established. This would have been the first step towards a tulpa
------------------------------------------------
It strikes me that this thread seems to resolve itself into contests between science and Zen, whereas there are many intermediary experiential adventures between the two, between the measurements of physical phenomena coupled with intensive reasoning and the utter vacuity of Zen emptiness.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Yes, I've been saying this all along.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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well this certainly ain't been no lesson on how to relax)
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jgill: . . . there are many intermediary experiential adventures . . . between the measurements of physical phenomena coupled with intensive reasoning and the utter vacuity of Zen emptiness.
. . . as well as intensive zen emptiness and the utter vacuity of reasoning.
;->
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Too many nerds here perhaps, but I don't know of a single druggie burnout on this thread.
As for gradual versus sudden enlightenment, this has been a debate in Buddhism for a long time. It was a crucial issue at a certain point in Tibetan history with the Indian schools advocating gradualism and the Chinese schools advocating the sudden approach of Zen. In Tibet, the gradual approach won out.
I think they arrive at the same place but the gradual approach is easier for most people - that's why is is the most numerous and approachable. In giving time for the mind to adjust to no thing ness, it seems to make its followers a little more comprehensible to the inexperienced and is certainly less rigid and austere. Even in Japan, Zen is considered to be for a small minority, and other forms of Buddhism prevail.
If jgill is interested in those other states before the advanced ones that Largo and MikeL keep advocating, then looking into the Tibetan literature will probably prove more fruitful.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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It may read like an infinite series of sophomoric twaddle from druggie burn outs, but True Climbing can be found hiding in unlikely threads.
"True Climbing" perhaps--- but passive/aggressive comments are also in great overabundance, rarely if ever "hiding".
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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My apologies for advocating on this thread. It’s not what I mean to do. I’m just talking, and occasionally reporting.
(Geez, I’m not sure just what I advocate anymore. . . other than my wife to quit hassling me. She wants definitions, specifics, a great deal of certainty, and understanding.)
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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True Climbing can be found hiding in unlikely threads
"True climbing" is found on the rocks, not in the threads.
As for gradual versus sudden enlightenment . . . (Jan)
I suppose my comment was more to the point of experiential adventures that do not necessarily lead to enlightenment. Art of dreaming, hypnosis, psychic phenomena (if it exists), psychedelics, past life regression, moving meditations, mandala trances, etc. Some or most of which might be sheer baloney, but my opinion is that the mind has other dimensions than pure reasoning and enlightenment.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Sorry for any advocating I have done also. I used to also advocate for people to rock climb ; taking numerous noobs to the cliffs. stopped doing it years ago.
when you really look into it Zen is not that special or unique. It is just foreign to our culture (less so lately).
And the language/linguistics barrier makes it appear very different . An example is this don't know mind or empty mind; to have a don't know mind when doing everyday things (not meditating) which is 95% of our time if you meditate quite a bit, is to have an open non-judgmental mind. The act of not labeling people indefinitely. This obviously is not a zen exclusive thing.
The most unusual part of zen, and other buddhist meditation traditions, from a western cultural view IMO is that we sit down and watch our minds churning away at very specific times everyday and for numerous days and hours at a time periodically. Just sitting still and watching mind at work, it just does it's own thing like our heart and lungs whether we like it or not. You get to see how mind works by watching it.
Hence the buddhist attraction to this thread "what is mind?"
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Yes, jgill I agree. And Tibetan Buddhism has explored them all whereas Zen wants to go directly from here to nothingness. At a time when I was having strong psychedelic effects from intense meditatiuon, I went to a Japanese Zen master trying to understand what was going on and all he did was tell me it was all makyo / illusion which didn't really help at all given the intensity of the colors and their vibrations that I was seeing, including him surrounded by a blue light and what looked like lightning flying out of his fingertips when he gestured. (Three other people who had never done drugs and did not meditate, also saw this phenomenon at the same time - one a General's secretary, one a computer specialist and one a psychology prof).
Luckily for me, I found a Shingon Buddhist priest which is a type of Buddhism very similar to Tibetan forms. Another lucky aspect was that unlike the Zen master, the Shingon priest did not speak English so he worked on an energetic level with me and we didn't waste time on metaphysics. I saw and experienced many extraordinary occurrences working with him, everyone of which I eventually found described in the yogic or tantric literature which far from saying they were illusions, says that where ever you are, and whatever you experience is a good place to start from, and any illusion or negativity can be transformed into something else.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 2, 2015 - 03:47pm PT
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Well said, PSP. When I say, "experiential adventures," I am basically saying, when you sit still and observe your own immediate experience, that experience is going on whether you observe it or not. But what happens when you maintain a good posture, keep your eyes open and make no effort to DO anything? This includes the effort to meditate correctly, to have spiritual thoughts and feelings, to be different than how yo are this very instant. Slowly the attention shifts from what you are watching to the nature of watching and the watcher. Since you can't objectify the watcher "out there" ("you cannot kiss your own face"), you eventually settle into being the watcher, then being watching, then being, then no-thing.
That is an adventure...
JL
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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I'm using experiential adventures in a broader sense. Sitting and watching yourself watching may be adventurous, but there's a lot more going on on the Astral Planes! Free up your "I" and see where it can lead you when it separates from the physical body!
;>)
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jstan
climber
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but I don't know of a single druggie burnout on this thread. Jan
Actually this thread has persuaded me to open my mind and become a druggie burnout. That's what has been advocated here, right? Can I cheat and get some imagination?
Speaking of burnout I tried to work a whole day in the sun at near 100 with just 2/3 of a quart of water today. Ooff!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Rule number one in the world of woo is if you see things that other people don't - eat a big meal, drink plenty of water and get a good night's sleep. If it persists in the morning, find a tantric master, you're in for an interesting ride.
Meanwhile jstan, I recommend you drink more water and stay in the shade lest people think that you too are into woo.
There are rumors that it can be caught over the internet.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Speaking of burnout I tried to work a whole day in the sun at near 100 with just 2/3 of a quart of water today. Ooff!
Beer is by far the best and most efficient rehydration strategy. Hoppy Pilsner.
One who rehydrates with the nectar of the gods is oblivious to high temperatures .
(Just don't go "craggin")
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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One who rehydrates with the nectar of the gods is oblivious to high temperatures
And floats off to Olympus to be with the gods forever . . .
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