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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Steve,
I tried both my scanners and the page is just too big. I don't want to make a crap job of it. Maybe Doug will post the text of the article. Sorry!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, Ca
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Aren’t the real issues here about location and precedent?
Even most of the Older Trads still climbing these days are fine with the fact that rap bolting, pre-inspection, cleaning and the like are accepted practices in many areas. In some places these techniques even yield the best routes – mostly sport climbs. Heck, I just got back from a 5 day ORG trip, clippin’ all those bolts – who cares how they got there… it was a blast.
However, other climbs in other areas cry out for a more serious and adventurous approach, even if it does not lead to immediate success. If one views the SF of Half Dome as such a place, then one is bound to question the methods employed to complete this ascent. I will suggest that what is the “right” or “best” way to do new routes is not a universal one, it is situational.
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MZiebell
Social climber
Prescott, AZ
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"... I don't want to infringe on copyrights."
As long as you don't materially benefit from posting I think you're fine.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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EDIT: Okay... a tad big. I'll scale that down from now on!
EDIT EDIT... Please stand by... DR may have some news on the posting of the article.
Edit^3: On the next page DR says the article will be online soon so I have withdrawn my plans. Thanks to DR and R&I
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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What I want is a handrail goin' up that Karma dike.
I'm still shaking my head.....
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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If you don't want to infring on copyrighted material then don't! Chicks are allways doing that crap. Every time they say "i don't want to hurt you" you just KNOW they are getting ready to drop the bomb and cut your heart out and drag it down the road behind their truck....... If you want to read it buy the magazine or let R&I post it on their website if they are so inclined. JMOP
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Why should anybody spend time and money re-bolting it [Karma], unless they
planned to sack up and do a second ascent.
First, I'd say the current condition of the route is a real deterrent
to anybody with dreams of repeating it.
You have an old book, gathering dust and molding underneath a bunch of crap
in the corner of your basement. A friend comes in, sees the book and says
"Hey, can I take that?" If you answer "No, I'm using it," what kind of
fool would believe you? Letting this route rot sends a message loud and clear,
we don't care about routes like this. Even though it's a bold ground-up free
ascent on a big wall, it's not worth preserving.
Even if the route didn't get a 2nd for another 20 years, having it "in condition"
makes it available. It stands, ready to go. It stands, period. Let it rot,
and there's no argument if somebody retro-raps into PG status. You cannot
say "Hey, we're using that!" All you would be able to say is "Those
corroded bolts stood as a monument to what people used to do." Past tense.
Contrast that with "That proud route stands, ready for all comers."
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Instead of Fattrad chopping Growing Up, perhaps we could get him to rebolt Karma...
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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hey k-man, I like your idea, but isn't the fact that no one climbs it testament to the fact that we don't care about these sorts of climbs? (see the museum climbs thread.) Isn't reequiping it for someone else to climb exactly the sort of 'climbing public service' that Growing Up is getting railed on for?
Personally, I think the idea of doing that much work, on one single route, that still may not get climbed, is a bit ludicrous. Even if it does get climbed, it will likely be by some superman. Why do superman's work for him? Especially if that superman is a full time climber with no regular job.
I see it as much different from the great community service that Roger Brown, Clint Cummins (and others?) have done.
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BLD
Social climber
CA
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What about a statute of limitations on routes. 20 years between any two ascents and the route becomes fair game.
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Talk about flaming, tradman.
I'd buy the magazine if it were available. But a January
issue is long gone from the mag racks.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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OK, Rock and Ice is putting it on their website. Should be up shortly, and we'll give you the URL.
I know that I ultimately own the copyright. Like Shawn Reeder ultimately owns the photos. Often though the magazine or book or whoever publishes it has bought exclusive rights for some period of time, and I'm not sure what that is or if it's over.
Shawn Reeder has agreed to have his photos appear with the text, so we should get the whole package soon.
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Gene
climber
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Thanks Doug.
I have the article but appreciate your effort in getting it put on line for those who don't. Good job.
Gene
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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DR
I appreciate it. I've always admired your writing and
style.
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Off-Width Loving Crack Whore
Trad climber
SLO
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Tradman-
I know that my nickname could insinuate that I am a "chick", but I'm knot. The name was jokingly given to me after a weekend of climbing at The Needles (CA).
I was merely asking for DR or anyone else to let me know if my posting of the cover was infringement so that I could delete it if necessary.
Also I have read the article (how else would I been able to scan the cover?) and it is obvious that several people posting here haven't. R&I doesn't have a cover photo of that issue on their site so I posted it for reference.
If you recently had your heart ripped out I'm truly sorry... that sh*t sucks
Anyway... back to the thread....
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Yeah, thanks a bunch for getting that on the R&I site...I bought that issue when it came out, but lost track of it.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Thanks Doug,
New fodder should freshen up the discussion a bit eh?
Will the defendants please rise.....
Haha
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Good idea to put fresh bolts on Karma, and I think I just heard Fatty volunteer. Thanks!
I have an idea for a slight upgrade. NO, not THAT. Hear me out.
Put little chains on the bolts that reach over that cord-slicing edge on the dike. (Or swaged cable...whatever.) Then the rope can run below the dike out of harms way. You can see in those Karmic photos that some of the bolts are right above the dike, making it easy.
If the route got safer without growing any more bolts, maybe I'd give it a try. Never seen ramps like that anywhere else.
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Doug
You're a gentleman for having taken all the abuse on
this thread. Thanks again for being constructive in
your replies.
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