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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 17, 2008 - 12:21pm PT
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I think we'd all agree that cams are "less than simple" and marvel at the routes people did before cams, using just nuts and hexes.
Now whether or not we choose to do the same is up to us, but we shouldn't be fooled that we are doing the same climb.
Don't you agree?
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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May 17, 2008 - 12:40pm PT
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Ed said,
"What is interesting to me is that people who put up and do routes beyond the "trad only" school would object to being so identified... it would seem that they still feel the need that the climbing be validated by inclusion with that school. "
I've always wondered that myself... like when TD folks don't want their "style" reported in a guidebook while GU folks do. What gives?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 17, 2008 - 04:11pm PT
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The beauty is that there are many ways of climbing. However, when I eventually get around to trying to lead Cream, I will do it with a rack of modern cams, which makes it very different from Klemens' original route.
It's not likely that I would go up there with a rack of bongs to "recreate" the original FA style.
We also put in a better anchor than was left there, since it seems the intent of the FA was to provide a bolted anchor. Original topos had only one bolt, we found two, both very dicey protection. We replaced both bolts with 3/8" x 2.25" SS anchor bolts and SS hangers. (However, we left one of the found bolts there, which should be removed as the bolt seems to have snapped, didn't realize this at the time).
Best style? probably debatable. But the amount of tat up there on the mank was definitely not good either. However; more importantly, the approach is over rather fragile ground, definitely suggest rapping onto the ledge from above and climbing out as a better way. If that area ever gets popular (a big if), the traffic will definitely ruin the foliage in the "square gully" going down. Which would be a pity.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 17, 2008 - 05:17pm PT
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Ed...you seem to playing both sides of the fence...and that is a good thing. I think a lot of us do between what was, what is.
Each generation will continue to add it's own spice to the pot...not all of us will enjoy/like the favor.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 17, 2008 - 05:57pm PT
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Bob, don't really think of it as two sides of the fence, rather, continuum. But I always know where that "best style" place is, the "traditional rules" and I don't have any trouble owning up to what I'm doing.
It took a long time for me to put a bolt into stone in the Valley. Mostly climbing with Eric and learning what is acceptable locally, what it means to "keep it simple." I also don't mind admitting to less than good style on climbs that I do, I'm still learning and getting better (I hope), and I do strive to climbing by the "trad rules." While I'm doing that, I'm not going to mess things up for climbers who can climb better than me, just because I thought of doing a route. I'm going to leave it. I really like the idea of "catch and release" routes, where the ascent team passes leaving the climb in as near an untouched condition as possible; and then not telling about it... something for someone else some other time... leave your ego on the ground.
My feeling is we all work that continuum.
But as John says, "Up is up. Down is down." There are absolutes here, no question about it. We know what a good style ascent is, one that realizes the "trad rules." Not to say that other climbs aren't good climb.
To me Smythe has it right when he confesses:
I now realise that it is the joy, the good comradeship, the climbing that matter in mountaineering, not the attainment of the objective.
I do believe the same.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 17, 2008 - 07:10pm PT
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Ed wrote: But as John says, "Up is up. Down is down." There are absolutes here, no question about it. We know what a good style ascent is, one that realizes the "trad rules." Not to say that other climbs aren't good climb.
There are questions about it...starting from the ground doesn't always produce a better route or experience for the FA party or those that follow.
Your is an opinion and strong one. I get a little weird/leary when anyone start dealing in absolutes...especially in climbing. Good style mean many things to many different climbers.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 17, 2008 - 07:15pm PT
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"two sides of the fence" is also a bit strong, I just don't see it that way. Instead, I see it as going to the well to get inspiration, the well here is our traditional rules. And we move away from the well... doesn't mean things aren't good or right.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 17, 2008 - 08:03pm PT
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Ed...hope you are not thinking that I think your thoughts or opinions are a negative.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 17, 2008 - 08:09pm PT
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nope... just thought I might not have expressed my thoughts well enough above.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2008 - 09:21pm PT
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No Ed, ya done good.
Its not necessarily a black or white question. There's gray in there. There's a spectrum.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 17, 2008 - 09:26pm PT
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Ron wrote: No Ed, ya done good.
Its not necessarily a black or white question. There's gray in there. There's a spectrum.
What about people who start with no history or lack of perspective??
They know little to nothing about trad-rules and why should they care??
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 17, 2008 - 09:28pm PT
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bob- that's what this thread, and coz's threads are all about, giving those that do have history and perspective express their point of view... hopefully the whole discourse has done that!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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May 17, 2008 - 09:36pm PT
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I once led Cream in Eb's with tubes and a #4 friend, no way I'm doing that again! Besides that fact that I can barely do the approach, let alone the climb, these days...
Nice transgresional side discussion, btw.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 17, 2008 - 09:47pm PT
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Ed wrote: bob- that's what this thread, and coz's threads are all about, giving those that do have history and perspective express their point of view... hopefully the whole discourse has done that!
Look at the average age of the posters on this tread. Not to many young ones. I think we are missing out by not having a younger perspective on this issue.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 17, 2008 - 09:50pm PT
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It's allways good to know the history and the guide lines for the diferent styles.. and you should think carefully before you commit to putting drill to stone. Once you make the decision to drill It better be a good rout because your hammering and drilling is going to be there for a long, long time.
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Dogtown Climber
Trad climber
The Idyllwild City dump
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May 17, 2008 - 11:58pm PT
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Hey,Bob
Tradman makes a good point. its true.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 18, 2008 - 12:05am PT
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Would you rather go to a Rolling Stones concert with Rosie O'Donnel, or a Dog Show with Angelina Jolie?........It's not the route,...it's the experience and company.......with that in mind......crappy climbs can be fun, and * classics can suck.....each climbing experience is unique to the party.......(Best, of course, is the concert with Angelina.........boing.........) We have all had not-so-fun experiences on classics, and a blast on suck-wad climbs.......it can be ass-backwards...........Didn't A. Lowe say the best climber in the world is the one having the most fun?.......
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 18, 2008 - 12:08am PT
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Jaybro: "I once led Cream in Eb's with tubes and a #4 friend, no way I'm doing that again!"
Yeah, next time borrow a 6" bong from a pal, and have the full-on experience!
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WBraun
climber
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May 18, 2008 - 12:43am PT
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Kevin and Bob.
The younger generation will respond 30 years from now.
They will have their own hell to deal with then.
I guarantee it ...... :-)
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 18, 2008 - 12:57am PT
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Kevin wrote:he question posed in the OP might not require much debate amongst most younger climbers - they were introduced to climbing at a point where side by side ethics already existed, unlike most of us.
Their general lack of response to the question would lead you to believe they generally think it more practical (nothing to get yer panties in a bundle over), than a trip down the road to hell (something worth avoiding at all costs).
I agree Kevin and that what I was trying to get at. They have taken a different path and look at it from a much different perspective.
I also want to say that even through these conversations can get somewhat heated...I respect almost everyone input and greatly enjoy seeing that even through we are over the hill we are not out of the loop.
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