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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Sep 23, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
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it's cool if you follow the first ascent, just place any extra bolts the first ascentionist might have been to lazy to put in etc, one ever 4 feet should do, especially on crack routes so i don't have to carry any cams
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Sep 23, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
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Funny but 99.8 percent of the climbing community could care less about John Kelly or his routes
Oh really Bobby?
I agree if we are talking about sport climbing, rap bolting, power drilling, gym climbers.
Fact is there are more climbers entering the spectrum, oblivious to what it takes to establish a Grade V or VI route.
I have much respect for those that hang it out there, in a style that is (according to you and others here) diminishing.
Now, let's ask the large majority of folks who frequent larger climbing venues in the Lower 48. Bet your ass that BS number of yours will drop like a chopped retrobolt.
There will always be a strong group, dedicated to maintaining History.
Sorry you don't feel the same.
Edit
MT 1999383774- Sounds like you and John have much in common. That is what you are trying to elude to with posting pics of you in the alpine, and on The hotrod route.
Good on you for treading lightly, probably wasn't a hard choice in the moment now was it.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 23, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
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Mucci wrote: I agree if we are talking about sport climbing, rap bolting, power drilling, gym climbers.
Fact is there are more climbers entering the spectrum, oblivious to what it takes to establish a Grade V or VI route.
Thanks for proving my point.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Sep 23, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
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Read the rest of the paragraph Bobby.
Plenty of the new generation choose to walk a different path.
You must not know any of them.
Frequent the areas that are more committing than single pitch, and you will find a much different attitude.
Of course you know this already having climbed since the 70's.
What were you like at our age Bob?
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 23, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
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Binks "one every 4 feet, especially on cracks", they don't call him Bolting Bob for nothing
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 23, 2013 - 07:48pm PT
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Mucci wrote: Frequent the areas that are more committing than single pitch, and you will find a much different attitude.
I live in the Boulder area....most of the harder routes in Eldo (Scary Canary, Wendego, and so on) see very limited on sight ascents, I led Scary Canary in 1982, maybe the fifth ascent, I doubt it has seen 20 on sights since then. The new breed likes to TR and then place gear on rappel, something we didn't do in the 70's or early 80's. The harder routes at the Gunks see little to no traffic unless on a top rope.
For better or for worse, for every John Kelly/Mucci there are hundreds at the opposite end. Something you are going to have deal with.
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Sep 23, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
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Go check his routes out if you think it's fictional
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 23, 2013 - 07:56pm PT
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JK wrote: Go check his routes out if you think it's fictional
JK wrote: Binks "one every 4 feet, especially on cracks", they don't call him Bolting Bob for nothing
Please do...you are full of sh#t.
John Kelly, you and Sarah Palin related? Or is just the water in Alaska?
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Sep 23, 2013 - 08:18pm PT
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And "logic bombs" - that phrase is the funniest inadvertent admission I've read from an extremist in a while
That turn of phrase was very "advertent", sweet heart! Your logic bombs with most of us here.
I disagree with your premise that the FA owns public property.
And you still don't understand that the route and the rock are inextricably linked, but they are not the same. I will agree that the rock is held in common trust, and neither you nor I own it exclusively; you, however, are blind to the idea that the route is owned by the FA party. It's their sand castle. You are not a righteous dude--in most people's eyes--if you believe it is your sanctimonious obligation to bring it home to the Barka Loungers.
Just because we grew up with the belief that the style of the FA matters, and that you--in your self-deluded belief that modern climbers no longer respect that--don't, does not imply that your notion of change supersedes other, older notions.
Come on up and disrespect the FAs at the Whitney Portal, big sot (sic). We'll have a field day!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 23, 2013 - 08:20pm PT
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...according to your logic if someone makes a sand castle on a beach, they now own the beach and others should go find a different beach to make sand castles on or accept the first beaches sand castle ascetic (sp).
--
There was never a century old tradition of leaving sand castles in place. Because the ethic changed in sport climbing, is it sage to go back and re-engineer the few old trad routes that call for more sac and commitment than pure sport climbers are used to? Or is it more interesting and instructive and legitimate to let the climbers rise to the level of the climb, as opposed to wanting to immediately gratify the belief that they have a right to climb whatever they want to - right this minute.
In any viable sport there are certain levels of excellence that have been established over the ages to which all true sportspeople relish the change to achieve. To test themselves against former players. So what kind of real sportsman seeks to change longstanding rules to simply achieve the same levels of excellence, but a little bit easier, with a little less risk, and with a hell of a lot less commitment?
It's not for me to decide how the future plays out. I always resisted anyone telling me what to do, but I never looked to bring the rock or any route down to my level. The sport was in trying to lead Windigo as it was, not with pre-placed pro and a few extra bolts because I just roll that way and fell doing so is more better because, like, you don't own the rock, dude. You'll never convince me anyone but a selfish wanker thinks that way.
But this is a tricky one. But you can't rule out a certain entitlement syndrome to those avidly out to dumb things down and change the old rules just to facilitate immediate ascents on what many had to work up to in the past. But to the drunk (mentality), "I know what I want and I want it now!"
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 23, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
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Bob D'A -- "For better or for worse, for every John Kelly/Mucci there are hundreds at the opposite end."
That's true.
And that's why I've always watched the best and not much of the hundreds of the rest to learn.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 23, 2013 - 08:28pm PT
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Werner wrote...And that's why I've always watched the best and not much of the hundreds of the rest to learn.
Like Chris Sharma?
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 23, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
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Chris Sharma
Yes he's very very good .....
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 23, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
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Still waiting for John K to back up his lame ass claim. Typical from an emotional wreck.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 23, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
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Bolted routes are now considered Traditional?
Traditional is any route that was on-sighted and lead ground up. What gear you used is a secondary issue. Here in the US, the bolt was considered something to limit at all cost up till about 1982.
So no, by definition, the use of bolts does not negate a trad ethic as it was and is practiced in the Americas. Europe and Messner are another affair.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 23, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
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Stefan Glowacz was way better than Sharma .....
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Sep 23, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
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old men who think they own things they don't is about aaaaalllll you've got
And you've got exactly what, pantywaist? Hmmm?
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Sep 23, 2013 - 08:50pm PT
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where do I put the bolt kit?
We can suggest one or two small, tight, dark places...
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 23, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
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I like this new sh!t talking now. (Not you hedge)
Much better.
:-)
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 23, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
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Jim Donni wrote: Agreed....the first ascentionists do not own the route. The rating should come from consensus and not be locked into the FA's opinion. Remember a rating is a guide and should be as accurate as possible. Underrating a climb intentionally only makes you look insecure and foolish.The initial style should be respected but only to an extent. If a 5.13 climber puts up a 5.8 route with one bolt....retro bolting is legitimate.....just use the common sense rule.
The conversation should have ended here...the sixth post on this thread.
Sane, logical and somewhat progressive thinking. Some old guys do rule.
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