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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Right, from A6 to A4+ and from A5 to A3+...
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raymond phule
climber
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"Right, from A6 to A4+ and from A5 to A3+... "
You really should learn about the change in aid ratings that have happened over the years. Many routes where rated A5 in the eighties and is now rated much lower (and not only due to further ascents doing them easier).
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Yes, but a hook is a hook now and 29 years ago!
And again, to place a leadhead you don't use the chisel to drill the hole, you use it to fill the hole the best way you can. And the chisel isn't like the ones used to remove a head, is thinner and does not have a blade. The more lead touches the hole surface, the better it holds the weight!
Example:
Do you see the hole on the right, next to the leadhead placed? Well, that's perfect for a leadhead. But what's up when you remove it? Probably the hole will get a little bit more rounded... And if you are as stupid, full of prejudices and ignorant as Jensen, you'll think the FA team lied.
But it happens in ALL the routes when you use pitons, leadheads, hooks, beaks, etc. That's the difference between aid climbing and clean aid climbing.
So, that's life! Some routes get harder and some gets easier after some ascents. That's why some route ratings change, but at least in Europe, no one downrates a A5 route to A3+...
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raymond phule
climber
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So your latest version of the route is that it already existed a lot of nice rounds hole on the route 20 inches apart such that Pelut didn't drill any holes for his lead heads?
You show your ignorance all the time. There have of course been early A5 routes that have been downgraded to A3+ also in Europe. It has been a change in the method of grading aid routes and new wave A3+ is often really hard. I also believe that sandbagging have been very common.
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pelut espania
Big Wall climber
Espania
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Hola mi Americano perrrro putos!
Aqui are the facts:
Americano putos can no do A6
Only Espania mans can do A6
Joshnson and Wings of e'steel is no bueno
All Americanos are weak and scared but Kohl is rock God and must be from Espania!
I am best aids climber in Catalonia and el todo mundo! And I am Espanish man.
The only bueno nailing on my US trip was Jeremys madre!
Viva Espania!!!!
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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My opinion about the route is worthless...
But LOD wasn't exactly a leadheads placements every 50 cm. And probably they wouldn't be round until the pitch was cleaned. But as long as I tried to explain it to you and you don't arrive to understand it (I'll make you a drawing later), I'm glad you recognized that Jensen was wrong with the wood wedges and his absurd theories. You could check out Jensen's photos on his webpage, but, oh surprise, they've vanished... Is it magic?
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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And according to Crusher's report, no drilled holes in Hot parad'ice.
I did not say there were no drilled holes in Hot Parad-Ice.
There are many holes in Hot-Parad_ice.
They are not natural. They are in blank sections of rock. They are created, made, forced. Made with a hammer and something.
I asked Pelut, and he said he did not use a drill.
Some of them look like they are made with a cold chisel, which, because the cold chisel steel is tempered so very hard, and because the Fisher Tower sandstone is so soft, can create a hole that is deep, precise, a bit fat (wide) but great for stacking two Birdbeaks/Peckers. Many holes looked like this.
I asked Pelut. Pelut told me he used pitons, and sometimes pounded them in to entirely blank bits of rock. And he bent lots of them. In places, sharp pitons can be pounded straight into the rock. It's very slow, and expensive, as you will destroy many pitons in the process.
So, the holes are not made with a drill, but they ARE drilled holes. Many, many!
On Hot-Parad_Ice the holes are usable by a second ascent party. We did use them (or about half of them, as they were so close together). There is no other choice, as they rock is utterly blank in places-no crack, no seam, nothing. The holes are still there, easily usable by a third ascent party.
Lots of pictures here:
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/HOT-PARAD-ICE-KINGFISHER-Second-Ascent/t11890n.html
Crusher
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raymond phule
climber
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Yes, I am sure that it is just my fault that I don't think that what you say make much sense.
Some questions. Do you believe that Pelut:
Drilled holes where he put in lead heads?
If yes how many?
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MisterE
climber
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Hola mi Americano perrrro putos!
Aqui are the facts:
Americano putos can no do A6
Only Espania mans can do A6
Joshnson and Wings of e'steel is no bueno
All Americanos are weak and scared but Kohl is rock God and must be from Espania!
I am best aids climber in Catalonia and el todo mundo! And I am Espanish man.
The only bueno nailing on my US trip was Jeremys madre!
Viva Espania!!!!
LOL! Hope you are getting some care for your Immunity Deficiency, best aids climber...
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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When I think about drilled holes, I think about a round hole made with a chisel or a bit to place rivets, made to place a head or a hook inside.
The holes you found, as you reported in the trip report, were made as you explain. Indeed, I've seen the destroyed iron hawk (which are made of chromoly steel and the brand is cheaper than BD)...
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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The holes you found, as you reported in the trip report, were made as you explain. Indeed, I've seen the destroyed iron hawk (which are made of chromoly steel and the brand is cheaper than BD)...
Exactly. The whole point of Aid climbing as i understand it, is to try and conform to the rock, and use what it gives you, not create your own placements by bashing pitons into blank rock and call it A6...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Strip away all the posturing, RH, and you are left with this SIMPLE, hard, cold fact:
Pelut drilled holes about every 24 inches (on average, many much closer) ALL the way up the Titan. Virtually every placement.
That is NOT a route; I don't care WHAT you put into those holes. And it is NOT A6, not A6+, not A5, not A-ANYTHING! It's a hole-ladder bottom to top, and THAT is not climbing.
For you to claim I was not good enough is a complete joke. What Pelut did (and expected other climbers to do) is NOT sustainable on that sandstone. And my earliest posts about not knowing what the wood was for are later (on my own site) revamped, as I even have pictures of holes with wooden wedges and pitons. So, I did figure out what Pelut had done in some of the holes. And I have EARLY pics on my site showing the lead-heads, so I knew from the start what he was doing with those. I KNEW what was happening. I just wasn't willing to do THAT to the rock on the SA.
And the real joke in your posts is that you call the wooden wedges with pitons A1. But if that's true, then HOW could Pelut have claimed A6+ if he was doing A1 with a hole every 18 inches through the "crux" of the route? What a laugh!
The irony is that I did complete the route SO THAT idiots like you could not later claim that I had not seen the whole route, so that you could not claim that the climbing was much different higher up than wherever I might have stopped because I had gotten sickened enough by what I saw! But I did see the WHOLE pile through, bottom to top, so that that claim could NEVER be floated. And I climbed it ground up, rather than rapping the route, so that nobody could claim that I didn't see it from a leader's perspective. If people think I should have stopped, tough. Then no honest SA was possible (I think, exactly as Pelut intended); so the ridiculous rating would have stood forever, and it was all a lie. Sorry, dude, no A6+, no A5, not even A4. Just a bottom to top drilled ladder.
What I did was convert the route to something HONEST, and in so doing I placed a LOT less permanent metal than Pelut would have done if he had been honest about the steaming pile! And that's because I (unlike Pelut) know how to top-loop on steep rock. I don't live in my third-loops like a weak pansy, filling the rock with "protection" three times as often as is needed (ALL drilled, btw). As MY long history shows, I'm actually willing to take long falls.
And all your harping on WoS is really quite hilarious. You fixate on the rating, but you are clueless. If anything has come out of the SA, it is that WoS is HARD, technical, and that you are going to fall a LOT and take LONG ones. You ARE going to get hurt. I'll repeat, you ARE going to get hurt. So if that's only "A3+," then Pelut's pile was A0-! LOL
There was nothing on LOWS (I stick by my rename) that was even slightly stressful. It was a bottom to top JOKE! LOL
Goofball, I did the fifth ascent of the Sea of Dreams, back before it got all drilled up, and I didn't add ONE hole. I did the SA of Intifada and didn't add ONE hole. Pelut can claim neither. Pelut just drills and drills.
And then he drills some more. He drills until EVERY placement is drilled. He drills and drills on EVERY climb he does. He drills when it is not even remotely necessary. He drills not to piece a route together, bridging blank sections! He drills (and CLOSE together) because he is chicken-droppings. He drills and drills and drills and drills and drills. And then, because he is chicken-droppings, he drills even more. He even back-drills, thinking he doesn't have ENOUGH metal in the wall yet, because he is chicken-droppings.
That's pathetic on ANY continent, because it is NOT climbing.
End of story.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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The whole point of Aid climbing as i understand it, is to try and conform to the rock, and use what it gives you, not create your own placements by bashing pitons into blank rock and call it A6.
Big Mike +2
You nailed it; pun intended. :-)
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WBraun
climber
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Good post Richard.
Good post .......
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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The only thing remaining to be sussed out on this thread is the identity of
'Rivet hanger'. Show us some cojones and tell us who you are!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Thank you, Werner.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Hey, madbolter, remind me, how far off the ground was the first belay, the "hook belay" on Peligru!
It was rather less than a ropelength, yes?
And Big MIke: YEAH!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Depending on where you ground-anchor, it's somewhere between 85 and 100 feet off the "deck." I ran out a 170-foot pitch to bypass it and reach a good crack system. I placed a single 1/2-inch bolt below the initial seam (very close to Pelut's initial drilled lead-head, btw), which easily enables reaching the crack system.
And, to remind, the hook anchor is deeply drilled! Deep, angle-taking holes fore and aft, and the hooks themselves sit into deeply-drilled pits.
The fact that we now know that Pelut was driving wooden wedges and pitons into at least some of the holes explains the depth of the holes fore and aft. I got mostly-buried angles, but perhaps he used wedges and other sorts of pitons. Don't know. But it was no "death anchor."
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BASE1361
climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
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I can't believe you all are having a conversation over the InterDewb with two retarded people.
RH and Pelut.
It's been repeated and confirmed POS line up the Fishers... End of Topic.
Use the time you would reply in gearing up for another climb.....
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Are "hole counts" not kept during ascents in Villanova, Montrebey, Montserrat and aid climbing routes in general?
Let us know!