Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Jun 27, 2013 - 08:26pm PT
|
Another interesting day--Rachel Jeantel was still being a goofball, but couldn't really top yesterday's performance.
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict not guilty (or conviction of less serious charges--haven't even looked into what those options may be).
Certainly could be wrong and I agree with a lot of Kos's assessment from yesterday--I'm not sure juries really get "beyond a reasonable doubt" or care too much about it if they do.
But the summaries of the testimony that I've seen don't even come close to establishing BRD--just a bunch of very ambiguous testimony, generally by witnesses who are clearly wrong about at least a portion of their testimony or have been exposed as engaging in silly speculation (e.g., one witness thought Zimmerman was on top because he was "bigger," but she based that on pictures of TM that she had seen when he was a little kid instead of the over 6 foot, 17 year-old guy that he actually was). Nothing that shows who initiated the physical contact, who was screaming for help, or really anything other than Zimm was a creepy-assed cracker (of that, he is guilty.
If the judge had any balls/ovaries, there should be a judgment of acquittal (don't even put the case in the hands of a the jury to avoid an erroneous verdict based on passion/prejudice), but that ain't gonna happen in a highly publicized trial like this.
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Jun 27, 2013 - 08:47pm PT
|
Chim--that is most certainly NOT the formal law, but it may well be what the jury decides, no matter how weak the evidence.
As a hypothetical, let's say TM would have had a gun, what would have happened? We'll never know, but most likely situation is that instead of TM attacking Zimm and getting shot, he would have simply held him at gunpoint until the police arrived.
|
|
TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
|
|
|
Jun 27, 2013 - 09:09pm PT
|
As a hypothetical, let's say TM would have had a gun, what would have happened? We'll never know, but most likely situation is that instead of TM attacking Zimm and getting shot, he would have simply held him at gunpoint until the police arrived.
I think that the odds of either having the prior training or self control to refrain from shooting are highly unlikely. The fundamental problem is that under Florida law BOTH felt threatened so BOTH are entitled to shoot, which is absurd. The other reality is that only the one left standing gets to tell his side. Let's see, perjury or life in prison; "your honor, he told me he'd smash my face in, so I shot him".
Only one person will ever know what really happened, but the law that allows this to happen must be addressed. I fully support anyone's right to self-defense, but allowing lethal force in defense against a perceived non-lethal threat is a recipe for anarchy.
TE
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Jun 27, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
|
I was really skeptical of manzanita's stuff about interracial rape, and it of course has zilch to do with TM case.
But out of curiosity, I googled it.
It's pretty interesting--from what I can see in some quick reading, he's essentially right: in modern times, there are close to zero incidents of white men raping black women, and lots of cases of black men raping white women.
I don't have any agenda in pointing this out, just thought it was interesting.
I had thought about the case of the French finance guy (DSK) allegedly raping the black hotel maid, but I guess that wasn't substantiated.
TE--you're right, and other commentators have noted that expansive self-defense laws may commonly lead to situations where each person in a conflict is legally authorized to kill the other!
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Jun 27, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
|
it cant be second degree . . .
its either first degree or boyslaughter That's too bad for Florida, cuz 2nd Degree is what he was charged with!
I guess it's boysaugher or nothing then!
You actually have to be pretty weird to think that Zimm set out to kill TM, even if you think he's guilty of something, even a very serious crime. Remember that Zimm called the police in the first place and asked them to send an officer to the scene, before he encountered TM in the "final conflict." Zimm also told witnesses to get the police after the shooting.
Did Zimm racially profile a teenager who in fact wasn't doing anything wrong and (sort of) follow him, which led the fight? Looks that way to me, but the question is what sort of a crime is that.
Edit:
Question: Are rSin and MM the same person? If so, he should really take a look at how he's spending his time.
|
|
Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
|
|
|
Jun 27, 2013 - 10:49pm PT
|
My impression of Mr Zimmerman is that of an insecure man with irreconcilable fears that he attempted to purge confronting off-the-wall teens wondering (or prowling) in the night.
Aggravated manslaughter...the defendant's reckless disregard of the consequences causing the death of another FITS... regardless if Trayvon Martin lunged at and scuffled with him or not...
Malice of forethought? I harbor strong suspicions of that...but making a legal case for it would be quite formidable.
|
|
PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Jun 27, 2013 - 11:48pm PT
|
So we have Manzanita Man and rSin if could catch bluey could we delete all three at once?
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jun 28, 2013 - 12:23am PT
|
Holy sh#t this thread.
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Jun 28, 2013 - 12:34am PT
|
Anyone who has read the details of this trail so far and thinks there is one chance in a millon this POS is going to get off on a murder charge is deluded beyond all understanding.
Would you be willing to back up your words with some wagering, or were they meant as a rant?
I'd put up virtually any amount up for the right odds--let me know what you have in mind.
(Outright acquittal is a long shot of course--odds need to reflect that. I won't hold you to million to 1, but it's gotta be good.)
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Jun 28, 2013 - 10:40am PT
|
I learned during the last election that trying to track down delusional republicans to pay up was more trouble than it is worth ...
I'm not interested in your money or a debate ..
Your commentary is petty and flawed ..
I am 99.9 percent sure of it ... And I'm almost never wrong .
So you can have that as a prize ...
We can pay the money to a trusted third party beforehand, or use an online escrow service. If you're 99.9% sure, any odds better than about 1000:1 favor you.
I'll give you an order-of-magnitude deal and accept 100:1. If you still don't like those odds, just throw something out and I'll consider it.
I'll agree to wager any amount at 100:1 odds (say $20 minimum on my part, otherwise it's not worth the time) provided we each put the funds in escrow.
Or are you just a full-of-it windbag? (I like some of your nutty rants and
have no problem with you, but I'm calling out your BS on this one.)
(I still think Zimm will most likely be convicted of something, and quite likely M2. But it's not as "black and white" as Riley seems to think. Best coverage I've seen is at http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/28/questions-still-loom-over-george-zimmerman-trial?hpt=hp_inthenews )
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Jun 28, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
|
Riley, to make the bet, we need to have odds. It doesn't make sense to make an even money bet. I too think he'll be convicted of something, I just think there's a very real chance (I'll make up a number and say 20%, maybe even higher) he'll be acquitted. He has some reasonable witnesses--e.g., the most recent guy who testified said that he saw the guy wearing Zimm's color shirt on the bottom, apparently getting pounded MMA style!
If you don't have time or interest in working out the details of the bet, we can drop it. (I sort of like silly bets so it's not unpleasant for me, but you have to be into it.)
Cheers back at ya, have a good one.
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Jun 28, 2013 - 12:09pm PT
|
Do you realize how ignorant you look? how ridiculously pathetic you look to us?
lol
really? coming from this guy? lol
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Jun 28, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
|
It didn't help to build the prosecution around that big fat racist illiterate girlfriend of Martin's. She may end up being Zimmerman's Mark Furman.
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Jun 28, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
|
Riley--I just copied what you said into my post so there was context for what I wrote--no other reason.
I will not take the bet at even odds--I think it's more likely than not that he'll get convicted of something. I haven't yet heard how it may play out with options the jury will have to convict of M2, lesser offense (probably manslaughter), or something else, or nothing.
But here is what you seem to be missing:
You seem to think it's almost inconceivable that he'll be acquitted--you wrote million to one and 99.9% (1000 to 1) in your above posts. If you really believe that, you should absolutely take the bet at 100-1 or anything much more favorable than 1000-1. From an economics point of view, a 100-1 bet would be incredibly favorable to you, if you have any confidence in your prediction.
If you're not interested in wagering, that's fine.
But I have to say, it seems more likely to me that you really don't have any confidence in your 99.9%, and you realize it's a much closer call than that . . .
Edit--was the video the one with the black home invader beating the crap out of the white woman (resident)?
Yeah that was pretty crazy, especially the way ge followed her around dishing out repeated punches and kicks; it's not as if he just got surprised and lashed out.
I'm sure everyone hopes he's caught and given the max, which undoubtedly isn't as much as he deserves. Anyone who commits a crime like that should never walk the streets.
|
|
goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
|
|
|
Jun 28, 2013 - 08:35pm PT
|
I'd shoot Dr. F if he came into my yard because his mouth is a ignorant blowhard weapon.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Jun 28, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
|
Innocent?
He's certainly not innocent. But that doesn't mean he's also not guilty.
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Jun 28, 2013 - 11:45pm PT
|
Good point Chaz-that's the way I see it too.
Anyway, back to the actual trial:
Another very good for the defense, as I see it.
Instead of long commentary, I'll just quote from Orlando Sentinel's summary, see below.
I'm almost getting comfortable with an even money bet on an acquittal, or at least no felony conviction. Not that I necessarily think that's a good thing.
Dr. F--can't tell when you're trolling, but if you're serious: yes, the defense is self defense. In every jurisdiction, you're allowed to use deadly force to defend yourself against a threat of serious bodily harm.
After two days' testimony by the state's star witness ended Thursday, prosecutors on Friday called the man expected to be the defense's star: John Good, a Zimmerman neighbor who told Sanford police that on the night of the shooting he'd seen a black man on top of a lighter-skinned man "just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA-style."
On the witness stand, Good said he was watching television in the living room of his Retreat at Twin Lakes townhome when he heard noises outside. He opened his glass sliding door and stepped out onto his porch.
It looked like a "tussle," Good said, adding "I yelled out, 'What's going on?' and 'Stop it,' I believe."
Good said two people were wrestling, in a straddling position — which defense attorney Mark O'Mara acted out on his knees in court, and Good described with MMA terminology: The "ground and pound."
The one on top was wearing dark clothes, he said, and the one on the bottom had lighter skin and was wearing white or red.
Pressed further by O'Mara, Good said he could identify them: "The person who you now know to be Trayvon Martin was on top, correct?" O'Mara asked.
"Correct," Good replied.
"And he was the one who was raining blows down on the person on the bottom, George Zimmerman, right?" O'Mara followed.
Good's response: "That's what it looked like."
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Jun 28, 2013 - 11:56pm PT
|
What if Trayvon happened to get Zimmerman's gun while Zimmerman was attacking him, and shot Zimmerman, then who's fault would it be?
I don't think we have enough facts in your hypothetical to answer the question.
If you disarm an attacker, you can use the weapon if necessary for self defense from that point on, but it doesn't give you the right to in effect execute the attacker.
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2013 - 01:19am PT
|
National-type trials are a show for the masses--any verdict will elicit emotional responses from both sides, as it should...
...so long as wisdom is gained in the process
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!