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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Oct 27, 2011 - 03:51pm PT
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don't suppose the fact of DNA molecules assuming the form of a double helix could possibly imply electromagnetic impedance effects
i use that as an example of something outside your comfort zone; just because i happen to know an academic researcher experimenting with that
as might be expected; you start throwing bananas about...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Oct 27, 2011 - 04:00pm PT
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cochrane,
i use that as an example of something outside your comfort zone
As I pointed out, it's squarely in my comfort zone. To be clear, I'm challenging you: what you wrote makes no sense.
Still waiting to see any paper or any legitimate link showing any relevancy between DNA and impedance...
.....
you start throwing bananas about...
Better bananas than bullsh#t.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Oct 27, 2011 - 04:08pm PT
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do your own Google if you are actually interested in the subject:
cms.bsu.edu/Academics/CollegesandDepartments/.../Research.ashx
Electron transport is an important process that controls physical properties and chemical activities of many molecular and biological systems, including DNA. Many applications of nanotechnology, such as biosensors, solar energy, molecular and bioelectronics have greatly benefited from research on various critical electron transport phenomena. For example, charge migration in DNA is directly related to the detection of damage in DNA which may occur in the cells of human beings. ...
The objectives of our study are to theoretically investigate how DNA molecules support rather high electrical currents given the right environmental condition. Therefore, we develop a simplified model of the DNA double-helix molecular structure in which the effects of base pair sequencing, contact coupling between the DNA and the electrodes, temperature effects, and transport sensitivity to an environmental magnetic field can be varied and studied.
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Book: Biomedical Applications
By Alaa S. Abd-El-AzizAlaa S. Abd-El-Aziz - 2004 - Medical - 218 pages
Importantly, the effects scale with the length of the DNA. ... Warburg impedance W, which represents mass transfer to the electrode, ... In both cases, the tight interaction of the metal with the DNA double helix is expected to enhance ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=uutygS7ZhIkC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=DNA+double+helix+impedance+effects&source=bl&ots=P01HOCbkNi&sig=tXKO581XRuStl0YlsRHPCz1cIuM&hl=en&ei=obapTvGyKbHWiAKwg7T4Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&sqi=2&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=DNA%20double%20helix%20impedance%20effects&f=false
this is not a peer reviewed academic forum published in 'Nature'
it is a forum where we can share ideas and speculations and perhaps learn something
i don't doubt your areas of expertise; but you could improve your manners
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Oct 27, 2011 - 04:09pm PT
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Electrophoresis is a common instrument / technique in medical school departments (incl. neuro) and has nothing to do with impedence in the context Cochrane used the term.
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EDIT to ADD
So where is the relevancy? Let alone to this thread? Every material from DNA to pubic hairs to a sweaty sit harness could be measured for resistance or in your case, impedance. How does that chapter you linked to, which is as obscure as it gets apparently regarding metallated DNA chains of different lengths, tie into anything regarding anything on this thread?
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Oct 27, 2011 - 04:12pm PT
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pay no mind,
repeat as necessary,
pay no mind
cheers
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Oct 27, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
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HFCS
it seems like you know enough in various areas of expertise to be a significant contributor to this thread
you certainly should know more about some of these things than i do
the possibility of DNA impedance is interesting to me and might be relevant to some of the discussion here, but i make no claim to expertise on the subject
i do know a lot of interesting things; but know there is a great deal more of interest to me where i don't know much
not sure why you think it is so important to run around attacking other people's contributions to the discussion
you say some things that just don't make sense to me
it's not particularly important what we agree with or not
we are trying to learn here and share experiences and levels of understanding
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Oct 27, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
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you say some things that just don't make sense to me
Fair enough. Peace out.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
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First, Marlow, get back in the corner and put the pointy hat on. Intemperate speech and hack humor do nothing to further your cause.
You know, the funny thing about all this is that I really DON'T have a theory of mind. Most of my comments have been directed toward the glaring deficiencies per a purely mechanical theory or consciousness, not because I am against such a thing, but because the fundamental reality for all human beings (experience) is not even taken up with 3rd person objective description. We hear all this about me postulation things about spiritual entities (huh?), disembodied minds, and so forth but really I just wondering what experience really is. Perhaps the fatuous words like "experience is in the atoms" is enough for some people. Not so for me.
When people started looking deeply into matter they pushed off from wacky religious ideas and got down to brass tacks. But when I suggest we do the same with experience, people spring back to measuring rather than even moving one inch into 1st person subjective experience - which we're all enmeshed in anyhow. That's the crazy part. An invitation to delve into where you are, right now, is viewed as a kind attack on science, rather than an adventure - meaning you don't know in advance where it might lead you or what the outcome might be.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Oct 27, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
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Another counter-intuitive, 100% mechanistic, mind-blowing process at work:
http://physicsbuzz.physicscentral.com/2011/10/this-video-has-been-making-rounds.html
Is something similar going on deep in neural circuits (as far as counter-intuitive marvels) - to evince memory, sentience, intention, cognitive streaming - the usual markers of "consciousness" - that natural selection has stumbled on and then over a gazillion regenerations preserved or locked into place. I think so.
Mechanistic marvels as they are discovered at the base of our being should be respected in the new century - that is the new attitude - or should be - certainly they shouldn't be dissed or denied, which is a common prevalent attitude amongst paranormalists to supernaturalists.
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MH2
climber
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Oct 27, 2011 - 07:31pm PT
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"is"
the idiocy of the word haunts me.
If it were abolished, human thought might begin to make sense.
I don't know what anything "is", I only know how it seems to me at this moment.
It seems to me that even a casual study of the structure and workings
of the brain gives an encouraging impression that anything is possible in there.
What does the phrase "purely mechanical" signify in connection to a dynamical system of billions of components?
It doesn't even work for the hundreds of neurons in Aplysia.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 27, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
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HFCS's impedance is mismatched with his DNA and thus he has a high standing wave ratio.
This is why he is a mechanistic robot with no clue beyond "The Machine"
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Oct 27, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
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You're old-school, Werner. Since the emergence of digital electronics and interfacing, so-called "impedance mismatching" is by and large archaic at least as any kind of concern among circuit designers. Get with the times, bro! lol
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 27, 2011 - 08:19pm PT
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Every vehicle I built this year I had to check the Standing wave ratio from the radio to the antenna.
Our Motorola mobile astro spectra radios are analog and digital APCO25 at $3000 each.
So I don't want to fry the transmitter.
Now WTF are talking about impedance matching is not needed anymore.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Oct 27, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
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So I don't want to fry the transmitter.
Describe your system.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Oct 27, 2011 - 08:55pm PT
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Another counter-intuitive, 100% mechanistic, mind-blowing process at work:
does anyone else notice a certain inconsistency of thinking here relative to observing this very interesting super-cooled superconducting mag-lev demonstration?
"i see it (on video) and believe it, because i've been told that a plausible scientific explanation has been bestowed upon it, and the demonstration is supposedly repeatable"
vs
"it didn't happen to me and i don't believe it because it is not commonly observed and happened to someone else (eye witness) who can't explain it to me in terms that are acceptable to me (so it must be a fantasy or hallucination)"
What does the phrase "purely mechanical" signify in connection to a dynamical system of billions of components?
in AI and supercomputing we call it a 'combinatorial explosion' where the calculation exceeds our capabilities (global climate models have been one of the big challenges)
the challenge here is there's so much we don't know; it is basically pretty foolish to assume a delimited understanding of reality and ridicule anything outside those assumed limits
suppose i agree that 'the mind' is entirely mechanistic according to the laws of physics and biochemistry
i can actually agree to that with some cautionary notes that we certainly have a lot to learn
so perhaps factor in some of the unusual phenomena observed in quantum physics and postulated by string theory; or even confined to well tested electromagnetic phenomena
now just how 'counter-intuitive and mind-blowing' are some of the unusual phenomena we have been discussing?
suppose we postulate that sub-atomic particles could be considered to be 'thought particles'; or if different terminology makes you happier, 'spirit particles'
perhaps, in the spirit of the comments above, the Higgs boson or quarks or even hadrons should be renamed 'woowoo particles'
i'll suggest that we barely know enough to speculate on some of this; let alone claim to understand the 'mechanisms' of the universe
but i certainly appreciate all the interesting contributions people are making on this thread
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Oct 27, 2011 - 09:00pm PT
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Just to be clear, to be mechanistic (or a mechanist) does not mean that the "mechanist" fully understands ALL mechanisms of action whether alive or not, living or not, playing out under the sun. I think I know you know that, indeed, I think we all know that, but I just wanted to say it to help reaffirm the context.
I better rest now. Later...
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 27, 2011 - 09:03pm PT
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This is what I use and if you don't know about them then you're blowing smoke ...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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Oct 27, 2011 - 09:06pm PT
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I do not know about that, I'm no radio guy. Never was. Looks interesting. Tell me about it. What do you use it for? Then we can talk about impedance matching or impedance mismatching.
Later...
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