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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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pretty much worse as you go east....
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noshoesnoshirt
climber
Arkansas, I suppose
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One summer when I was guiding out in WV (NRG), I did a run from my house down to Fern Buttress. When I returned to the top of the steep trail to the road I noticed four tires along the side of the trail. Obviously someone had rolled them down the trail from the minuscule pull-off. I spent about twenty minutes carrying the tires up the hill and stacking them in the pull-off, then ran back to my house to get my car and come back and collect the tires.
When I got back to the pull-off the tires were gone. I peered around a bit and finally saw one of them - rolled back down the hill. Seems someone saw the stack of tires on the steep slope and couldn't resist.
I died a little bit inside at that moment.
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dogtown
Gym climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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All of them. The most wrecked Glacier National Park for sure, I was there this year. No Glacier’s. Now how in the hell can we have a National Park called Glacier if there’s no Glacier‘s?
Eh? Dogtown.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Sep 10, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
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You cannot successfully resolve a contradiction with a contradiction.
For thousands of years humans held no incentive to not litter, and therefore learned to efficiently drop what they did not need any longer.
It will require time to learn the inefficiency of dropping trash everywhere amid our current overpopulation. Enjoy the process.
When the National Park Service (government) forcefully seizes people's money (taxation) against their will (a contradiction) for the advertised purpose of managing trash in the National Parks, the retaliatory incentive is to trash the parks since people are forced to pay for the trash clean up service.
Littering is therefore extended beyond the otherwise normal learning process.
If no such service or taxation existed, people would sooner learn to not litter, by normal incentive. Voluntary clean-up projects would occur by normal human interest, and the results would advance the social learning process.
So enjoy the extended process wherein unquestioning government dolts, especially Park Pigs, too ignorant to understand the human mind's designed learning process, will continue to increasingly seize people's money for therefore obviously counter productive processes.
It is worse than that. The created incentive of the Park Pigs is to always leave trash in place, for budget excuses for more tax paid enforcement rangers who need more trash left in place for more budget excuses for more rangers, and so forth.
The most problems exist where the government has the most control because their insatiable craving for more control is dependent upon the existence of obvious problems. That is why cops arrest harmless dope smokers and climbers, and leave real criminals on the streets for the statistical excuses for more cops.
Park Pigs and other cops are so stupid they cannot understand the above, and its results for even their own offspring.
The humans are the best comedy on the rock.
DougBuchanan.com
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jstan
climber
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Sep 10, 2009 - 08:33pm PT
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May I suggest we have a tax at the point of sale proportional to the amount of
packaging material and to the percent of that material typically ending up as
litter? Since there would be no rebate on return the monies could be delivered
directly to the government function responsible for cleaning up the litter.
It might even encourage companies to reduce their packaging content.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Sep 11, 2009 - 03:04am PT
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All of the suggestions on the control of litter, for decades, have resulted in the problem of which you complain.
Until you belatedly start thinking, that is, start asking and answering questions where you and everybody else stated their already-failed conclusions, you will continue to make fools of yourselves with those conclusions.
The solutions to human-caused problems are laughably easy, but you cannot learn them until you ask real questions of your current conclusions.
A curious person will do that.
Unthinking people, and institutions making money off the ongoing problems, will not ask questions of their problem-sustaining conclusions.
Best comedy on the rock, but a lot of Super Topo folks are missing the joke. They are serious, much to the robust laughter of the observers.
DougBuchanan.com
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Roman
Trad climber
Boston
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Sep 11, 2009 - 08:47am PT
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I like many others in this thread pick up little bits of trash like cig butts and the like and put them in my pocket to dump later if I see them laying around. So I highly doubt that I am the only one to open my washing machine and sometimes see the remnants of butts and trash that I completely forgot I had picked up (because it wasnt mine and just didnt register I guess). God I hate that.
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okie
Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
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Sep 11, 2009 - 08:54am PT
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Soiled disposable diapers adjacent to the touron path to Bridaveil Falls. I saw many of these...
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Ken: So far we have had mentioned, the Smokey Mountains, Grand Canyon, Yellowstone, Zion and Gateway National Recreational Area. RMNP was mentioned too but apparently it is in pretty good shape. Any others?
Add: Tetons in a later detailed post
Good discussion worthy of a bump.
Edit to delete non- national park reference.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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On the way to Vista del Torres in Torres del Paine.
I might add there was snow on this trail earlier in the morning.
Pretty tough flip-flopping.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, justthemaid... thanks for the bump...
i don't think i had seen this years back...
sad--litter... :(
it's bad gardening:
wrong seeds:
lazy and selcentered and indifferent towards sound wisdom--things that affect so many wrong behavious in life...
these grow from childhood when folks neglect to teach or tend to their children... :(
or sadly, from children copying parents that were never taught to
conguer such things...
children are so precious, but look what happens to them...
and then:
look what happens to our world, and--to other humans...
*dear mom--
i know you don't see this here, but next time we talk on the phone...
i am thanking you for teaching us about not littering...
today, i took care of some... some, that someone else left in the bottom of my cart at the store :( ... but some blew away--i though of YOU--but it was gone too fast under some parked cars in the parkinglot and i could not get it... :(
it really DOES stick in our brain, folks--training...
say--would it HELP? if we approached the schools to have
'learn not to litter day?'
perhaps ....
once a week?
:)
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Ken-
Arches ain't too bad – except for the “Lens Cap Heaven” which exists within the bowl beneath Delicate Arch. Seems to be the only destination for most visitors...prolly 'cause it's at the end of the road in. I always though the nicest areas were right at the official Entrance, up beyond the Owl. Park Ave. is pretty decent too.
Let's hear it for the cleanest N.P.'s:
Canyonlands
Grand Canyon North Rim (especially Pt. Sublime)
King's/Sequoia
Death Valley (4 Wheel Drive N.P.)
And a round of applause for the Area most deserving of N.P. “protection,” but remains steadfastly BLM territory: Fishers/Mystery's.
The Navaho seem to be taking pretty good care of Monument Valley. Doubtless, this is due to the fact that one may not drive within about 6 miles or so of the Totem Pole, or the “natives” manning those little souvenir stands at the roadhead will sic the Tribal Tools on ya.
_That is...unless you hire a “guide” for about USD75 bucks or so to drive you out to the base in his pickup.
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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Hmm...are we going international now?
I've been meaning for some time to post up my jaunt up to what is now currently the world's new Ultima Thule – the northernmost land mass, just shy of 84N lat...I just can't get my field notes below 50 pages or so. Our little expedition did get published, though, “Esquire,” 2007.
The excellent travel guide series “Lonely Planet” devotes just one sentence, in its “Greenland and The Arctic” guidebook to what is the world's largest National Park, which encompasses the entire NE ¼ of the subcontinent: “only the most determined of scientists or climbers may expect to visit this Park.”
That's probably because it takes about a year, and a personal visit to the Danish Polar Institute in Copenhagen, to obtain a Permit. Plus $5,000 SAR insurance, and what have you...our Purser's final Permit consisted of a medium 3-ring binder of paperwork.
The jump off point for North Pearyland, Station Nord, at 82N, is also a bit out of the way. Either charter, as we did, a Twin Otter from Spitsbergen, or charter a helicopter from Reykjavik – ours got bumped by a competing group whom we just barely beat to the “summit.”
Another couple hours flight from Nord brings one to a roughly level spot of the tundra, containing a 55 gal drum of emergency aviation fuel, and little else. Except, in our case, a departing party of French, who'd trekked over to Kaffeekluben, former Ultima.
Cigarette butts all over their Base Camp.
I smoke myself...and made damn sure that landing strip was cleaner then I found it on our departure.
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