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dustonian
climber
Foresta
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Jul 30, 2009 - 10:06am PT
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Yeah, it's loose, but fairly mid-to-low-range in the bell curve I would say for alpine granite... the high Sierra in general is looser than most other classic alpine climbing areas, IMO. Compare the Diamond, Bugs, or Tetons to Temple Crag... well, there's no comparison really. The Hulk and maybe Cathedral and Conness and a couple others are the only formations that hold up to a national standard.... the rest of it is cool, adventurous, and kind of subpar to be honest.
Problem is, now that Temple has been Supertopo'd it gets lots of traffic from parties who aren't used to climbing choss... recipe for disaster really. Lots of pulling out rather than down going on up there these days...
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Impaler
Trad climber
Munich
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Jul 30, 2009 - 10:13am PT
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That's me on Dark Star in August last year just minutes after impact (I had a helmet and sunglasses on).
I liked it a lot! Next day my partner and I did the 3 celestial aretes. Some of the best time ever!
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dustonian
climber
Foresta
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Jul 30, 2009 - 10:19am PT
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Youch!!!
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 10:21am PT
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Here's my problem with how this thread has gone.
There happened to be 2 unfortunate incidents in a short period of time in one place. As a result, now there's a "what's wrong with this place?" and "noobs are back there knocking off rocks, stay out of the alpine!" going in here.
I don't recall hearing a bunch of stories of unknowing climbers getting into alpine trouble because of ST guides there. If there is, please show it and prove it. Sure it probably happens, I'm sure there have been epics. But what happened back there wasn't related to any damn ST guide.
My partner had more Sierra backcountry experience than just about anyone else I've climbed with. I've done enough Sierra alpine I was completely confident with doing this climb. What happened was an accident, pure and simple. Could have happened to anyone. We weren't using a 70, we weren't clodding along unaware of loose rock, we weren't using shiny new gear we purchased cause we just emerged from the gym yesterday and read in ST that there was a good line back there.
We were doing everything we needed to do to get up this thing safely. And something bad still happened. Sh#t happens.
I know there are arguments against ST publishing backcountry alpine stuff. But take it to another place and time. Please.
And FWIW, Linnea died before the ST guide ever came out. And she soloed Swiss Arete without incident before she died on Temple Crag. I have knowlege of what happened to her. Again, Sh#t happens back there.
Don't make this into something it's not.
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noriko nakagawa
Trad climber
los angeles
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:02am PT
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Yeah, the High Sierra is super sketchy. Best to climb elsewhere ;)
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:11am PT
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Noriko, I'm disappointed in you. I've followed your blog and enjoyed your high Sierra exploits. But you have still had experiences up there. Anyone that goes into the backcountry Sierra eventually will. It's only a matter of time. I've had nothing but good trips until this one.
If you read my post above you'll realize this was an isolated accident.
Jesus.
Please let this thread die. It's bringing out the elitest in too many.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:16am PT
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"It's bringing out the elitest in too many."
Nah, it's just a wankfest.
IMO, those that lack the strength, motivation and talent to climb something that's actually hard, can quickly make up for their shortcomings by taking risks on something easier.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:21am PT
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This post seems to have legs for some reason. The mountains, in this case the Sierra, are not the same as Joshua Tree. If you never want to have to deal with variable conditions of rock quality or weather there are plenty of venues for you. Isn't that why God created sport climbing.
George Lowe and I just returned from a 5 day trip to the Sierra. It was our first extended climbing together since Latok 1. We waited so long that we now comprised a 131 year old rope team.
The first day we did a 4 pitch route on Cardinal Pinnacle on perfect granite. We then climbed two routes on the Incredible Hulk, also on excellent rock. We finished off with Dark Star on Temple Crag. The first seven pitches were fun climbing on good, well protected quartzite. On reaching the ridge crest you have a lot of fun, exposed third classing with a considerable amount of loose rock. This part was the most fun for me, picking my way CAREFULLY up the ridge. The rock was not hanging over you so I felt quite safe as long as I exercised caution. That is one of the joys of climbing in the mountains- using care to move upward. Everything in life has risk, you can choose your own course. I will say that I felt safer on Temple Crag than I would on a motorcycle.
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marty(r)
climber
beneath the valley of ultravegans
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Jul 30, 2009 - 11:48am PT
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(Sun Ribbon Tyrolean)
(Thunderbolt to Sill--with that much rock there's bound to be something a little loose)
(Good thing the Milk Bottle is glued down)
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:05pm PT
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Yeah Jim, and I felt 100% safer on Temple than I did driving on the 405 Fwy on the way home.
Are you saying that anyone who gets hurt up there has it coming cause they didn't exercise intense care of some kind? Cause that's kind of how your post came across.
Sometimes bad things happen even when you use complete care and caution.
"The mountains, in this case the Sierra, are not the same as Joshua Tree. If you never want to have to deal with variable conditions of rock quality or weather there are plenty of venues for you. Isn't that why God created sport climbing."
I respect the Hell out of you man, but this thread has become a chest puffing ground. What does that have to do with anything in this thread? I haven't seen anyone in this thread post "I can't believe the experience on Middle Pal was so much harder than Double Cross." I don't see how that's even an argument here.
C'mon guys. Step back for a minute. 2 isolated incidents close together and now everyone's an alpine God if they've never had anything go wrong up there.
I guess the only true mistake is if anything ever goes wrong in the alpine, never ever share it here.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:32pm PT
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Flouride,
Sorry my post sounded that way to you. What I meant to say was that the mountains are what they are which is inherently dangerous. You can mitigate the risk by using good care and judgement. If the risk still seems too high there are numerous crags that offer safe climbing both sport and trad. Rather than diss a mountain like Temple Crag as a choss pile, except it for what it is and make the personal choice to climb it or not.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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Thanks Jim, I appreciate that. Which is why way upthread I said in no way is this something that I feel shouldn't be climbed and did not agree with the original post. It's a great formation. It just needs a measure of caution that can't be stressed enough. That even if you've got plenty of Sierra alpine under your belt, beware of loose rock on this one. Chances are if you do that you'll be fine, but there's always the chance that you can take every precaution and still be screwed.
Again, in no way do I say avoid Temple. I wish to God what happened to me hadn't happened and I'd have had the pleasure of climbing that line and doing a great TR of a great day
Didn't happen this time and I got away VERY lucky.
One day it'll happen. Not again anytime soon, but one day.
Does anyone here read the entirety of all postings before posting up anymore?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 12:57pm PT
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Yeah, the Sierras pretty much suck. Best y'all go to the Cascades, Rockies, Troll Wall, Pamirs, Andes. Then we wouldn't be having this discussion as you would know choss.
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kovarpa
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Jul 30, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
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go climb the first couple pitches on East Arete of North summit on Split and then come back to discuss loose rock.
If you don't want to deal with loose rock on TC, don't climb there. If you don't want to deal with loose rock in general, don't climb alpine or don't climb outside at all.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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Jul 30, 2009 - 01:25pm PT
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Dark Star from SRA:
After zipping up my sleeping bag that night, it took my mind and body a half hour to release the low-level tension that built up in my system from fear of loose blocks on Sun Ribbon.
Every time I closed my eyes, I was teetering backwards and a motherload trundle was coming with me. This probably indicates an overly healthy respect for the objective and subjective shitstorms that can let loose up there, but it worked for me. Anything can happen to anyone at any time - that's the mantra.
One more pic edit:
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 30, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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Fluoride,
Coming from someone who's always been in the middle of the pack, I don't think anyone on this thread (at least from what I can tell) is in any way suggesting that your were careless or inexperienced or any other appropriate adjective. I think that many, like donini, were simply trying to communicate that the mountains can and often do bring a whole new element of objective danger that someone who habitually climbs at Williamson or even a well traveled area at Josh (or worse, Rockcreation) might find beyond what their prior experiences have prepared them for. That doesn't mean they can't accomplish the climb safely, but it does mean that someone like that might misjudge a situation and get hurt.
Having said that, when I'm in the mountains, I've always a "there but for the grace of God" attitude. Far better, more experienced climbers than I have gotten hurt or the chop for reasons not always within their control. Accidents are always the result of bad judgment, inexperience, etc.; sometimes they're just from bad luck.
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hengy
Trad climber
Vancouver, Canada
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Jul 30, 2009 - 03:52pm PT
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Don't stop looking for "loose" in the mountains. I managed to pull a bread loaf out of the 2nd pitch of Traveller's Buttress in 2005. My partner and I estimated that the block had been pulled on by no less than 50,000 hands and feet over the years.
"Caveat emptor", I believe they say.
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jul 30, 2009 - 04:10pm PT
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le bruce- that's a gorgeous view of the 'in" side of Dark Star's arete, or should I say "crest"... didn't know it was THAT pronounced, wow! Makes me want to go for it. Mindful of the loose rock of course.
Fat Dad- I think you meant to say aren't in lieu of are in your last sentence there. Those darn typos... they can cause so much misundg!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 30, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
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If you handed a yoyo to a 16 yr old and he played with it all wknd, you'd probably think he was a bit of a retard - sitting there while all his friends were out driving around picking up chicks. That's pretty much my feeling about these routes on Temple Crag.
I think it's pretty funny how many of you are talking about all this experience and wherewithal you have for the mountains, to be able to safely climb this choss, when in fact these are the most moderate, easy and accessible routes around. Even Dark Star has maybe 50 feet of >5.8 climbing. Yeah, it sure takes tons of experience to clamber up some unsustained, low angle 5.8 - and even more to think it was the coolest thing ever. Never mind that the argument is a straw man to begin with. What a bunch of mountain crushing badasses we have here.
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Mtnfreak
Mountain climber
Epicenter of North California
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I've climbed VB, MG, and SR multiple times, and I've gotten to witness a lot of other teams as well. My observations are:
1. People get sucked into believing that a 5.7 alpine climb is somehow easier to route-find. But that's not the case, and so I've watched several teams wander off-route into terrain with far more serious consequences than the best line up the arete.
2. The loose rock on Temple is better than the Minarets, worse than the Whitney Portal, but pretty standard for the Palisades - and is certainly not an outlier. You can still find loose rock on Mt Sill's Swiss Arete without getting off-route! And it certainly isn't worse than the Cascades! It does require testing holds.
Despite the grades and the approach, I don't think that Temple Crag is someplace I'd send my friends for their first alpine rock climb. I'd want them to climb something with easy route-finding, and short enough (less than 10 pitches) that if they have a screw-up they can fix it without spending a night out (that's happened already this summer on Temple as well).
Temple Crag shouldn't be underestimated, and simply deserves more respect. In the right hands with enough experience, its an awesome day climbing. I'm going back in two weeks!
Cheers
Chris
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