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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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I don't really doubt it but y'all need independant sources. Ya know? I don't buy sh#t from enviro-wacko sites.
I'm just sayin'....
I'll try to find something.
btw. lots of clean natural gas is being used to steam the dirty low grade oil out of the ground
So what, clean nat gas is evil now too? You lost me, dude.
You people are crazy!!!!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The principal comment almost all the chiefs made as the wave of genocide swept west was - '...and you call us savages?'.
The history of U.S. treaties with Native Americans has been one of relentless dishonesty on the part of the government and that extends right up to today with Obama administration's Interior Department carrying on that same sad legacy as we speak.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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We didn't go in for outright massacre of first peoples in most of Canada, but otherwise hardly treated them any better than the US. Not much to be proud of, and lots still to be worked out. Rapidly growing numbers of first peoples, in proportion to the population as a whole, is another challenge.
Apart from the oil industry, the Alberta government, and our Prime Minister Stephen Harper - a conservative from Alberta - few pretend that development of the tar sands in northern Alberta is anything but dirty, with high environmental impacts. Even given that heavy industry generally, and the oil industry particularly, are messy things. The tar sands (which the white washers in the governments recently started to call oil sands) require a lot of room, a lot of water, and a lot of energy to exploit. They produce a lot of dirty water, a lot of CO2, and a lot of chemicals. However, they're a huge resource of oil, and the time is coming when they'll be immensely valuable. As with Canada's fresh water, the US covets the oil from the tar sands.
And, as mentioned, the first peoples who live in the area, and historically depended on a hunting-gathering lifestyle, will be most affected.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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>btw. lots of clean natural gas is being used to steam the dirty low grade oil out of the ground
"So what, clean nat gas is evil now too? You lost me, dude."
the point is why waste something clean that is in relatively short supply. there's like a 30% overall energy gain, or some low figure...so if oil is expensive enough, they can afford to use natural gas. right now the tar sands isn't economical so expansion is all shut down...Alberta keeps going through boom and bust cycles..and is currently running a huge deficit (4.7 billion) since they take only a 1% tax from the oil companies. and there is nothing set aside for cleanup. the oil companies can go broke (after they've made their profits) and leave whoever lives there with the mess...
edit - MH brings up some good points about "Canada's fresh water". The areas that the tar sands drain into are relatively pristine and North America needs clean water more and more.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Blue for STARTERS, way back before our days, the government decided to "relocate" many Indians, and with the choice land they "gave" to them, decided that they could make what money they might without taxation. When the Indians figured out how to take this "choice" land and make a living, to the tune of millions and in some cases billions, the same government then decided to do what they had done thousands of times and renig on their "word" and "take" money from the Indians. It seemed that the Indians had outsmarted the government and the government could not "afford" to keep the promise of no taxation, so now they tax em and continue with dishonesty that started with the colonies.
This is but one example of thousands, but it will be wasted words on my part to try to "enlighten" you since you have seemed to have made up your mind that it is the fault of the Indians and probably the Jews, Blacks, Orientals and any other foreign people that they are a result of their own ineptness. It would be just as ignorant of me to rant that ALL "whites" who are on welfare, homeless, jobless or not living "the american dream" are in their situations because of their inabilility to overcome whatever hardship put them there. I KNOW there is more to their stories, therefore, don't judge on them. Maybe acceptance would be a better way to go. Accept people for who they are, not what they are. I remember talking with Ron Kauk a long time ago and he mentioned this was a common QUALITY he saw in native Indians, that they were willing to accept him, and people in general, rather than judge them. There is MUCH more to the story of why american Indians are where they are, but you will need to open your mind a bit more to acceptance before enlightenment can begin to take place.
Peace
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Olihphant
climber
Somewhere over the rainbow
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Right on Ron.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Can't we all just get along?
Our time here is limited!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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wes, are you still refusing to answer my questions?
Amazing how you pop up when Ron shows up with his Indian stories.
, but you will need to open your mind a bit more to acceptance before enlightenment can begin to take place.
Ron, you seem like a cool dude, but WTF? What does that mean? I have to understand more? You guys skirt questions and say I don't understand, you can't nail down specific examples, and I'm the "unenlightened one".....
dude...
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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bachar
Gym climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2009 - 07:01pm PT
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Don't worry...
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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John......:)
Peace
Edit or PS Blue them ain't Indian stories, pure hard fact! Believe it or deny it, pure hard fact.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Ron, so what do Natives want that they don't have??????
plain and simple.
I told ya John was red.....
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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This here thread started by JB is basically all about history.
My life has taught me to ask... "Who's history?"
The authors/historians that publish so called "historical accounts" do so through their own experiences. It could be those experiences were live/real time/lived through it or vicariously gleaned from other's accounts years after the fact. Either way it will always be a egocentric portrayal of the events, which is only human nature and correct process as well. Only with a grain of salt would I read or hear the white, politician/businessman's account of the events of the western world's development/colonization of the American south west. But then I am a cynical, half baked, old, curmudgeon.
I would like to see history books (and teachers) that teach history by giving as much press too the points of view/s of all factions involved at the time.
History? Who's history?
"Class, today we are going to learn about the overthrow by Washington, of the Monarchy of the Kingdom of Hawai'i. We will read accounts of the events leading up to the illegal overthrow through the eyes of the Rich, white, plantation owners of the time. Then we will study accounts of actions/reactions by the common subjects of the Kingdom of Hawai'i. As well we will read/study the writing of the Hawaiian queen of the time, Lili'uokalani. last but not least we will then study the opinions and reactions of the non native born, imported agricultural work force that tended the fields and therefore the low end of the socio/economic scale of the islands during that era"
Just one, brief example but that is how I wish I was taught history!
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Regardless of what transpired in North America after the colonists gained independence from the King of England, today I will celebrate. I celebrate the fact that my ancestors had the huevos to lay life, limb and all of their family as well, on the chopping block for what they believed in (at the time).
It all started with...
"No taxation without representation".
Stupid Britts. If they had any foresight at all they would have just given the colonists a few (mute) seats in Parliament and pretended that they actually had any say in matters.
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ps.
I readily admit that as a New Englander who's first public school was named in Honor of one of the Mass Bay Colony rep's that signed the Declaration... I was indoctrinated very early in life!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Happy Fourth folks...
BTW:
A couple of my Britt friends call it "Good Riddance day"
I call it a great excuse for...
well in a word - 'Pahteh'
with all my friends in all their diversity.
So I'm with you on that one Blitzo,
But you can keep the Salvia,
I'll stick with more simple substances ;)
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Olihphant
climber
Somewhere over the rainbow
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Freedom, Justice, Liberty and a chance to pursue Happiness. You know Blue all those un-patriotic un-American ideals.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Equality would be nice for starters, but I think you might argue that as well, so rather than get sucked into your rants, I'll go have a great Forth of July, watch the fireworks, bar b que, maybe go to the Pachanga Powwow and watch my friends play native music and dance. And hope you can see the "light".
Peace
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MisterE
Trad climber
One Step Beyond!
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Ron, appreciate your thoughtful input and unique perspective on this.
Erik.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Why thanks a million Mister E(rik)!
Peace
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Robb
Social climber
It's like FoCo in NoCo Daddy-O!
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Hey Blue
Part of a short answer to your question is the ingrained culture on the res. Will elaborate later as I'm out the door to take the kids to a concert.
Hey you guys have a great & safe forth.
GOD BLESS AMERICA!
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