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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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As the currently democratically elected president stated, its in the constitution that a president is to be in power for a term of 4 years...
Dude, not if he violates the law and the constitution. He was found by 2 other branches of gov't to be in violation AND WAS WARNED!
He proceeded anyway with ballots flown in FROM VENEZUELA and broke into a facility to get them!!!
They said enough is enough.
Pinche cabron means "lowlife piece of shit", basically.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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The thing you are least likely to ever get is a balanced, somewhat objective take on Zenaya himself. This is because a Central/South American "President" must have a little snake in him to ever get into, and remain in, office.
Throughout the Latino world there typically is a precarious balance between the military (who never fight "wars" but often wield the power because they have an armed and organized force), the ruling elite who have most of the money, the bankers, judiciary and other politicos, the impoverished majority, the smattering of intellectuals, and the youthful and often radical students. Each must be thrown a bone, unless, like Chavez, a populist can win over an overwhelming majority via massive handouts engendering a cult of personality. Most Latino politicos are slippery/agile/intelligent survivors whom are what both sides claim they are, though usually to a far lesser degree. The nuances and complexities are sometimes lost on journalists looking to paint Latino politicians according to American definitions and extremes. Throughout Latin American (or here in the us for that matter), you’ll rarely find an outright villain, nor yet a direct, honest-Abe style statesman.
The public sector in virtually all Latino countries is constructed in a way and functions in a manner that precludes anyone but a quasi-snake ever staying in power for very long. The underlying problem is a fluid constitution and no means of ever reliably enforcing the true law of the land.
South American "constitutions" have traditionally been documents of convenience for whoever is in office. If the law serves the desires of the Big Man, regardless of his integrity or intentions, the constitution is honored as a sacred document. If certain amendments are required to, say, stay in office for ten of fifty years, the constitution is either tweaked as need be, or perhaps shitcanned and a new one drafted up. If the "congress," military or other force feel differently, the big man is show the door, or shot dead. To expect any South American country to conduct important business according to an inalienable code or rule of law is to never haven driven south of San Diego or crossed the Rio Grande. Ergo, arguing about the legality of Honduras swapping out presidents is a North American, not a South American, concern.
As many have pointed out, the chief problem is that all Latino countries (excepting Brazil) were fashioned around a spectacularly corrupt and inefficient Spanish model designed for a few hidalgos to bilk the land and the people of every last centavo, with a “military” that quickly became a semi-autonomous armed force used to enforce the will of the president, providing said president kept the military brass sufficiently greased. Remember that no South American army has the slightest intention, desire or capacity to fight another South American country. They are an armed domestic force – nothing more.
Of course, Chavez’s army is not going to invade Honduras, especially for “political” reasons. Invading Honduras is like invading a store with no inventory. An invading force would have to babysit the place at their own expense, with no kickback, and this goes totally against the Spanish model.
That old Spanish model runs so deep in SA it’s virtually genetic in the minds and hearts of the people. Some countries are trying to pull away from the past- Chile and Peru come to mind - but when the stressors get big, the old ways assert themselves hard and fast. Latino countries vary extravagantly, but there remain sketchy constants which are outgrowths of the Spanish colonists to which no South American country has fully outgrown. Having been a semi-resident in SA for 25 years now, this is my experience.
JL
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Boy when we teach them we teach them good. They are the best trained killers and assassins thanks to SOAs. Once again the US has blood on its hands . . .
Key leaders of Honduras military coup trained in U.S.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3947562
http://www.southernstudies.org/2009/06/key-leaders-of-honduras-military-coup-trained-in-us.html
When I was in the US Army, I did my Basic and AIT at Fort Benning, and my company A-4-2 was in the heart of Ranger Country.
When our absolute nutville AirBorne Ranger Captain lead us in PT runs very early in the morning and we watched the sun rise beat red in the hot humid atmosphere above the pine forests of Georgia and fire-flies were blinking out here and there, he would sing cadence and expect us to say it word for word. We did more before BF than most people do all day. True. It felt like Nam (or what I imagined it would feel like, that or a modern scene out of Pirates of the Caribbean).
"I want to be an Airborne Ranger. I want to live the life of danger." With phrases such as, "Blood makes the grass grow. Kill them, kill them. Blood, Blood. Kill them babies, rape them women . . ." thrown in between. He got very descriptive and very inappropriate and I would prefer not to say more.
Yea, we were expected to say it word for word. And when we didn't we would be singled out and placed in the front leaning rest position in front of the whole company. That happened to me one day. They caught me not singing the worst parts, and I was called out and placed in the front leaning rest position. "This soldier doesn't want to sing cadence. Well PFC __ , why aren't you singing cadence? You think you're better than everyone else? You think you don't have to sing?"
At the time I was a Christian and doing pretty good in my daily walk with God. I wasn't about to say those things. So, humiliated in front of the entire company by myself, all I could do was stay speech-less and suffer the humiliation. My tears fell into the deep red Geogia soil. It was all I could do. I can look back now and say I'm glad I went through that hell and I experienced it first hand, I am better for it, and I truly know how sadistic our government can be.
How many death squads have been trained right here in the good old USA at the "School of the Americas (SOAs)" at Fort Benning? Too many to count.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Hondurans were in the streets yesterday protesting the illegal removal of their president.
I wonder if these were the same people that Zelaya led through the streets to break into a military base to illegally seize ballots shipped from Venezuela?
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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oh, this is a quick little chat with a professor from UC Santa Cruz, she has contacts and books on the subject and contacts within the counrty..
This Morning Show was most informative about what, who, why these things are happening...
http://www.kpfa.org/archive/id/52110
The first 20 minutes or so is the bulk of the discussion.. good analysis
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Bluering - Chaves Tool!!! LOL
Good call DMT!!!
Bwahhahhahahaahahaha!!!!
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath wrote:
"Arguing over the constitutionality of a central american coup is silly even by taco standards.
It works thusly: the person who controls the military is right."
Somehow I missed this. The plain and simple truth . . .
JL
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TomT
Trad climber
Aptos.
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While it is strange for us, and not my idea of a good system, many constitutions in Latin America do provide for the military to step in in "to save the country" if "called upon" or if the military thinks the country is at risk such as Peru in 76. Their constitutions have a more statist sensibility (think Italy or Spain pre-WW2) and the military as a protector of the state (rather than the nation). This aspect of their constitutions is often the pretext for a coup, rounding up of "dissidents" and in some odd cases social reform to restore order. The Honduran military has been famously corrupt, but so has the government.
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gazela
Boulder climber
Albuquerque, NM
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I can think of few activities that are more futile than posting on a SuperTopo political thread, but, given that my son is in the last couple of months of his Mormon church mission in Honduras, I have something of a personal stake in what happens there in the near term. Frankly, I find the notion that "once a banana republic, always a banana republic"--that is, that the fact that Latin American political elites in the past have acted out of economic self-interest, not from principle or some objective adherence to the rule of law, forces the conclusion that they are fundamentally incapable of the latter--to be vaguely repulsive, if not racist.
There can be no reasonable doubt that Mel Zelaya's intent in trying to change the term-limits provision of the Honduran constitution, in clear contravention of the amendment provisions specified therein (which, from what I've gathered on the topic of presidential succession, would have required the equivalent of a new constitutional convention), was to create a chavista-style regime in Honduras. His supporters, from the Obama administration to the OAS to Hugo Chavez himself, seem to think that would be a good thing, notwithstanding the fact that Zelaya was already wildly unpopular in Honduras (the latest poll I saw said that over two-thirds of the electorate wouldn't vote for him again under any circumstance).
So what did Zelaya's erstwhile allies (remember, his Liberal Party still has majorities in the Honduran Congress, and the new interim president, Roberto Micheletti, also belongs to that party) have to fear? And what would it hurt to let him resume his office given that he's ostensibly sworn off the idea of changing the constitution and attempting to stand for re-election this fall? Well, if the last ten years have shown us anything, it's how easily elections (or referenda) can be rigged, anywhere and at any time. And, in any case, a chief executive intent on subverting the system that put him in power can do a lot of mischief, even in his last six months in office. Given the events leading up to his ouster, I wouldn't trust Zelaya as far as I could throw him, and thus I can't blame the legislative and judicial branches of the Honduran government for holding firm on not allowing him back in office, even at the cost of foreign aid and international stature.
My biggest concern, of course, is that the situation not devolve into a bloodbath (especially, needless to say, one that could envelop my son), which will only happen in the event of foreign intervention. I doubt that the Obama administration would use any real clout to pressure Honduras into taking Zelaya back, but if the Chavezes, Moraleses, and Ortegas of the region followed through on their threats to invade, I suspect that President Obama, applauding the ends, would tolerate the means, even (especially?) if it led to the imposition of el chavismo by force on Honduras. It would be infinitely better just to let events play themselves out and allow the fall electoral process to take place normally there.
As for whether or not el chavismo is a good thing, it would be interesting to know Largo's opinion in that regard, given that the Latin American country in which he's taken up "semi-residence" is presumably Venezuela. I served my Mormon church mission in Chile thirty years ago, at the height of the Pinochet regime. Say what you will about "el Pinocho" (and I certainly don't condone the tortures and murders that his government committed), but even at that time it was understood that Chile would one day return to having free and open elections. Can the same now be said of Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Nicaragua and--especially--Cuba? And, if not, is it really a good thing to add Honduras to the list?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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What i find also troubling is the reference to his opposition as "elitists". Zelaya was a f*#king elitist! He just portrayed himself as a 'man of the people'. Sound familiar? Chavez? Obama?
Gimme a break! Typical commie crap!
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Gazela wrote:
My biggest concern, of course, is that the situation not devolve into a bloodbath (especially, needless to say, one that could envelop my son), which will only happen in the event of foreign intervention.
---
Foreign intervention is almost certainly not going to happen for the reasons I already stated: Honduras is worse than broke, with no huge surplus of oil, diamonds, gold, or anything else that other nations could kipe if they took the place over. Aside from potatoes and bananas, Honduras truly "ain't got sh#t."
However, power struggles can in and of themselves trigger horrendous aggression and bloodshed - and in some cases, invasion. Consider Lebanon. They too have little for a foreign nation to exploit (the place was once known as the Switzerland of the Middle East), but this didn't stop Syria from basically taking the place over. But Syria is also a country without a wealth of natural riches, so the investment in Lebanon was giving no return, so they basically bailed after causing all kinds of havoc.
But anyway, yes, a power struggle can trigger a bloodbath within the country itself, even a dead ass broke nation like Honduras.
I'm in Venezuela now and the media is full of the crisis in Honduras, especially now that the exiled President is said to be in the air, on his way back home. The papers run preposterous bible quotes from El Presidente about how he is heading back to "hoist the crucifix," blah blah blah. The military has shut down the airport and are all lined up, machine guns drawn. So far two protesters (protesting over what, we can never quite be sure) have been shot dead.
El President's plane supposedly left Washington over five hours ago, which puts him some hours late in landing back in Honduras. Cameras are pointed up at the sky but no jet has been spotted so far. The streets around the airport are swarming, rocks are being tossed at the military and police, guns are sounding.
Makes you wonder if El Presidente will make it back to Honduras tonight, or ever. This sets back Central and South America politics about thirty years, to the golden age of the "Banana Republic," when such juvenile things like the Honduras debacle were common and expected.
Standing by . . . .
PS: A quote: "Interim President Micheletti also alleged that Nicaragua is moving troops to their border in an attempt at psychological intimidation, and warned them not to cross into Honduras, "because we're ready to defend our border." Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega called the allegation "totally false."
That's the single biggest joke of this entire fiasco. Nicaragua lacks the resources, manpower, will and wherewithal to every do anything beyond a cross boarder raid.
Like Nicaragua military forces will charge into Honduras and help set up a new government? What novelist or insane person came up with that whopper? The aging nutter, Daniel Ortega? And the idea that Honduras is going to "defend our border" is equally fatuous. What happens when the recruits get hungary, or shot? The "defending" is over. Believe it: Latino military outfits fight no actual wars, they only dominate, terrorize and "defend" their own people, "fighting" only those who cannot truly fight back.
JL
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gazela
Boulder climber
Albuquerque, NM
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I'd like to believe that Honduras' being such a poor country assures that it won't be invaded, but a lot more than natural resources is at stake here. (If that weren't the case, who would give a fig if Zelaya served out the last six months of his term, and why would the media be painting this as a "military coup" instead of a sort of summary impeachment, as it is properly viewed?) The spread of Chavez-style socialist dictatorships in Latin America, masquerading as democracies, depends largely on a sense of momentum and inevitability. If Honduras punctures that illusion--as Argentina already has done, in large measure--what's to prevent the populations of Nicaragua, Ecuador, Bolivia, and even Venezuela from doing the same?
The BIGGEST joke in this whole affair is Zelaya's blaming the Obama administration for the "coup." As if....
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 21, 2009 - 11:33am PT
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No doubt he'll use the same methods as Zelaya
http://www.abc.es/20090717/internacional-iberoamerica/decomisan-varios-ordenadores-resultados-200907171753.html
"Tegucigalpa -- The National Direction of Criminal Investigation confiscated computers in the Presidential House in which were registered the supposed results of the referendum on the reform of the Constitution that was planned by former President Manuel Zelaya on last June 28, the day that he was ousted.
The District attorney's Office will investigate now if it is a possible crime of fraud and forgery of the documents, due to that some had been filled with the data of the people that supposedly had participated in the failed referendum. One of the public prosecutors that participated in the operating one carried out yesterday showed to the mass media an electoral minutes of the Technical Institute Luis Bogran, of Tegucigalpa, in which the number of people is specified that participated on the table 345, where 550 ballots were counted of which 450 were votes in favor of the proposal of Zelaya and 30 in against, besides 20 blank votes and 30 nulos.
"
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