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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 14, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
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I'm impressed.
I hope others learn from this as well.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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May 14, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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chainsaw - the transport of damaging chemicals can happen by several mechanisms. For instance, permanent markers contain three basic components, colorant, carrier (solvent) and resin (polymer). Solvents can penetrate and move through materials. So just because the colorant stays on the outside does not mean the solvents have. This why one should wear protective clothing when handling solvents as they can move through the skin and into the blood stream and do all kinds of nasty things to your brain and other vital organs.
Now if you want to go further it is known that the absorption of organic compounds such Diacetone alcohol which is a solvent contained in Sharpie pens causes embrittlement in nylons. Focus on the penultimate word of the last sentence -embrittlement - the loss of ductility. Solvents are just one of several mechanisms that cause embrittlement in nylon.
So while you may not believe the experimental tests, I will hedge my bets based on other evidence that marking your rope with a Sharpie pen is not a very smart thing to do . Just like leaving a rope out in the sun for long periods of time is not a smart thing to do.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 14, 2009 - 03:55pm PT
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Creek, I hope both you and your partner heal quickly.
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creek
climber
UT
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May 14, 2009 - 04:53pm PT
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I appreciate the support and comments. I can say that my buddy is doing way better than anyone who saw the incident would expect.
He is now forced to use his two weeks of vacation (time which he was planning to spend in the valley in September) for the initial recovery. There is a possibility he will miss some work after that as well but he is expected to recover fully and I know he’ll be back with a vengeance.
It is a different experience to feel responsibility for something that has effected another, especially someone you care about and knowing it could have been much worse. I can say that my final words regarding the situation are; I am extremely grateful that the outcome of my actions, appear to have only a temporary, though serious, effect on his life.
Regarding "stepping up" I f*#ked up but am not a pussy, my name is Lyle.
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jenren
Trad climber
Sac, CA
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May 14, 2009 - 05:01pm PT
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SOOOO glad to hear he'll be okay!!!
DUODESS Rope...why make anything else?
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scuffy b
climber
Bad Brothers' Bait and Switch Shop
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May 14, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
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That's amazingly good news.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 14, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
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hey there creek/lyle...
say, i have not read the front post yet, which is sometimes a great error, on the readers part, but i have seen that you and your partner had a bad accident...
may you both get through this hard time,and it is very hard to carry the blame alone one feels, alone...
may you come through this, in ways that will enhance your future and your friends, as well...
very sorry to hear this happened...
not to belittle how you feel, as well we should have feelings concerning our part in the lives of others, but just a reminder, so you wont go too deep into pain:
all of us at one time or other have hurt someone, even if just by accident, and it takes lots of friends, sometimes to help us get through... for some, it takes a life-time, for others, depending on what happened, they can tackle the trail of life, sooner...
god bless and may many friends be around when you need them...
and you be there for your friend, as he gets well...
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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May 14, 2009 - 08:22pm PT
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What he said.
Brutus
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Laguna Beach, CA
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May 14, 2009 - 08:30pm PT
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It's worth pointing out that almost all accidents happen as a result of a chain of mistakes put together. Conversely, having lots of good habits together can help protect one from harm.
Any one of the following can prevent this sort of accident. Put them together every time and failure to follow any one of them will not result in accident:
1) Knowing there is enough rope to lower to the ground.
2) Watching how much rope is left in the pile while lowering.
3) Tying into the rope or putting a knot in the end of the rope.
Suppose there is a 1% chance of failing to observe any one of the above. The chance of failing to observe all three (assuming they are your habit) would be 0.0001%. In other words, one in a million.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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May 14, 2009 - 10:05pm PT
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Creek,
thanks for owning up to what happened. However, here is one thing that I don't understand in your description of the event. You say that you belayed right out of the rope bag because the base of the climb was sandy and you didn't want to get your rope dirty. If you are that concerned about prolonging the life of your rope, why didn't the leader rappel when they topped out. Lowering is much more damaging to a rope than rappelling.
Please don't feel like I am trying to pick on you alone. What you describe is pretty common practice, but it seems to me bad logic since if one is really concerned about prolonging the life of their rope, rappelling instead of lowering is really the better option with walking off the best option(though many climbs don't have that option).
Bruce
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Hand Jammer
Trad climber
Bay Area
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May 14, 2009 - 11:52pm PT
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I only buy bi-colored ropes. I check that the color change is in the exact middle. If I lead a pitch I'll be lowering from, I tie the knot in the end myself. Take full responsibility for your own well being.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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May 15, 2009 - 12:03am PT
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wishing these guys the best.
i have worked around the most dangerous chemicals known to man kind and have been responsible for chemical process safety. when something is a potential hazard you engineer a solution to mitigage it. common sense really. in dont know why they do not apply the same logic to gear. it wont mitigate all accidents, but if it mitigatges one, it is worth it.
i do not understand why UAIAA does not mandate PERMANENT HIGHLY VISIBLE half way markers. it borders on criminal IMHO.
and to those who freaking know everything out there, who slam unfortunates you dont know (these guys) but refrain from slamming those you know (woody), you f*#kers are immature.
reminds me of clickish Jr. High......
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creek
climber
UT
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May 15, 2009 - 12:10am PT
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This could go on and on but what is done is done.
I would like to thank the Zion search and rescue crew for keeping a level head when I could not. I would like to thank the crew of that Blackhawk, who kicked ass in that terrain and got my friend outta there “and that’s all I have to say about that.”
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 15, 2009 - 01:03am PT
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Best of luck to Lyle and the vic. Sounds like a tough injury and a miracle that he's recovering so quickly.
True, it can happen to anyone. Also true (as mentioned earlier) that it's physically impossible to ever happen if the belayer ties in to the end of the rope - a standard safety procedure since the late 1940s.
On another note - I understand the idea that solvents can migrate once they are applied to something; but I'm thinking when this happens, the amount is far greater than that present when you mark the sheath of a rope with a Sharpee. Here, you're basically just scribbling on the sheath, not dunking the line in a chemical bath. The idea that said scribling will compromise the CORE of the rope (where most all the strength is) by up to 50% seems unlikely given the little amount of solvent/chemicals used for the job.
I'd like to see some American testing on this because the European claims seem crazy to me.
Again, speedy recovery to the vic. I've been dropped, and have dropped folks - not too far, but enough to scare me back to extreme vigilance.
JL
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Brian Hench
Trad climber
Laguna Beach, CA
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May 15, 2009 - 01:36am PT
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Responding to the poster who asked about use of dental floss to mark the middle, I have done it that way using Marline which is a waxed twisted nylon, like a super heavy duty thread. It held up at least as long Sharpie. One advantage is that you can feel it in the dark.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 15, 2009 - 06:34am PT
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largo, check out the middle mark thread. i did some good ol American testing and posted pictures. Tried like heck to get that ol rope to break at the sharpie middle mark and no dice.
Again, middle marks won't stop all of these accidents as in most cases the belayer is watching the climber and not watching the rope. The only 100% cure is to tie the belayer to the rope.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 15, 2009 - 08:51am PT
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Hawkeye makes some good points and I have reviewed my comments here. Overall though I see them as justified, nor do I think I have employed a double standard regarding the recent tragedy in JT.
Please understand that for the first quarter century that I climbed in Zion THERE WERE NO RESCUES.
True, there were less climbers, but I don't think that is why.
There was a different mindset, indeed the TYPE of climbers to come here was different.
Self sufficiency went without saying in those who came to pioneer routes.
With the advent of guidebooks, gizmos, and gumbies, the reputation of Zion has been softened in the eyes of wannabes.
Knowing that a rescue group now exists (albeit of questionable competence and ethical judgement, but thats another story) has almost worked like a self fulfilling prophesy.
As a result, I still feel that anyone, climber or otherwise, who does something foolish (and I haven't failed to screw up on occasion as well) should pick up the tab.
But, of course, nobody is responsible for anything any more. Everybody has an excuse.
Good to hear the victim is recovering, and again I tip my hat to creek for owning up (at least to the degree of a given name).
Try to remember that climbing in Zion is AT LEAST as dangerous as most other places. Given the severity and the vastness I tell people that "the rock is weaker and gravity is stronger".
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cowpoke
climber
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May 15, 2009 - 09:31am PT
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Dear creek,
I admire you for stepping forward to acknowledge your mistake. Moreover, I join in the chorus of folks who have humbly recognized this accident is a safety reminder. Best wishes to your partner and to you.
Eric
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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May 15, 2009 - 10:13am PT
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I disagree Dingus.
What about the guy who has done everything right; left word with friends, chosen a competent partner, worn a helmet, and still gets hit by natural rockfall?
That is WHY we pool communal resources and come together for each other.
Some accidents really ARE nobody's fault.
(then there are also the borderline cases, in which I think you give the benefit of the doubt to the victim)
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