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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 25, 2005 - 12:02am PT
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We like to have demons and saints but things are rarely so black and white.
I’d like to talk about the relationship of climbers and rangers first, and then something about Keith second.
One of the main complaints climbers seems to have about rangers is that some feel that the rangers have lumped all climbers into a negative category, singling them out for scrutiny and hassle.
That would be a bad thing and should give us ample reason not to single out rangers as a negative category, singling them out for hatred and mistrust. Having known my share of climbers and rangers in my 25 years in Yosemite, I can assure you that both climbers and rangers come with their individual mixes of vices and virtues, some more virtuous than others.
Still, it’s easy to demonize people in authority. They threaten us, have control over us, and sometimes don’t treat us humanly.
It’s hard for the authority not to dehumanize us as well. It’s a very tough thing to hand out punishment and discipline without creating some kind of emotional distance from those on the receiving end. The ones with the wisdom to do it well probably deserve five times more money and many move on to greener pastures. Sometimes the wrong guys take the job, or the job takes the wrong guys.
We all have to deal with it. My suggestions:
1. Resist dehumanization by being the best human possible. Most authority encounters won’t escalate if you remain calm and respectful. It’s not my nature to kiss up, but it is my nature to be friendly and understanding, and I’ve found that was enough to turn encounters that started off rough into friendly understandings. I don’t know why, but some rangers like to start off gruff and rude, maybe to test your attitude, or to establish dominance, but get nice if you don’t ratchet up the tension.
2. If some kind of abuse happens, takes notes of all the names, times, witnesses, and details and make a rational and reasoned complaint up the chain of command. Fight the charges in court if they are bogus and you can afford to. This is the way to actually restrain renegade (or merely rookie) law enforcement. If the judge sees repetitive accusations about the same guy, it builds a paper trail and invites the supervisors to reign in the excessive behavior.
Starting hate clubs on the Internet vents steam but only widens the gap between the folks who enforce the rules and the ones just trying to have fun.
As for Keith, I can’t speak about the disturbing stories that have circulated about him. I don’t want the rangers to act on hearsay, and so I don’t do it myself. If he was indeed out of control, then it was those who acted rationally within the system that removed him from a job that he wasn’t suited for, and put him in one where he appears to thrive.
Those who feel that Lober personally wronged them have a personal decision on how to deal with that past wound. I can’t tell you to forgive, it’s your call. I can suggest that carrying around a past insult is a burden. Personally, I believe in Karma. If somebody has wronged me, I either had it coming, or they will automatically suffer in the future. I leave it up to powers beyond myself.
I’ll share a few personal experiences around Keith just to add data points for those trying to make sense of this thread. I’ve run into him all over the valley climbing and skiing. He does seem to be somebody who actually gets out and climbs. A few times he seemed a bit gruff or guarded, until a few friendly words broke the ice and he became a regular climber sharing the stone. Other times he was friendly. Again, I think it’s easy for folks in adversarial jobs to be guarded against those “others” who might be “enemies.”
Since Keith has been back in his new job doing SAR, I’ve run across a few SAR members, both veterans and newbies, on the crags. I asked them how they felt about SAR, Keith, and how everything was working out. These guys were climber types, not law enforcement wannabes. I have to report that different folks on different occasions said unanimously that they liked working with Lober, and that he was doing a great job. It wasn’t a lukewarm endorsement, they thought he was a good guy. One guy said he thought Keith just didn’t have the right temperament for law enforcement, but he was much happier now and glad to be free from his old role.
So where does that leave us? Let’s say he did wrong on a few or many occasions in Law Enforcement, but that he has a new life where he’s doing good things. How should we respond if we merely heard stories? What should we do if we have a personal grudge to bear? It’s your call to make. For me, I don’t want the law to chase me for wrongs committed long in my past, and I don’t want to keep paying for things I’ve already paid for. I just gotta think Karma will balance the scales in the end.
In some ways, here’s the bottom line. Keith Lober is the guy who is going to come rescue our asses if we get in trouble on the stone. He may have to risk his neck to do so. If he were to die or get injured rescuing one of us, would his debt be paid? It will be too late to forgive in that instance.
In any case, I’d rather have a SAR Chief whose war with other climbers is over. The way for that to happen is to call off the negativity. It would be an outstanding act of courage if he came into the lion’s den and confessed if he did wrong in the past, but I don’t think any of us that haven’t made a similar act of courage has much business expecting that.
I’d like to suggest that we continue to build good relations with NPS at the same time that we ardently spotlight any abuse that needs attention.
Peace
Karl
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Link
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Jul 25, 2005 - 03:40am PT
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Hey Karl,
Word.
-Link
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Wrathchild
climber
right behind you
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Jul 25, 2005 - 10:23am PT
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Again, Karl speaks his mind eloquently.
This wasn't meant to be an all Ranger hate thread, just a recap of lobo's LEO days. With which many of us HAVE personal experience.
Somehow it got all "fox newsed" and became a vent against the system. It isn't, or at least wasn't meant to be.
I don't care if he is Jesus on the rocks, it doesn't make it allright to have been Ivan the Terrible with a badge.
On another point, people rely too heavily on SAR. Personally, I would NEVER call for a rescue, I would rather take my beating like a man. But apparently, believeing in personal resposiblity makes me a lost breed, nearly extinct in America today. I can't be the only one that realizes the existence of readily available YOSAR causes gumbies to get in WAY over their heads, especially on the Captain.
The valley is dead to me, for so many reasons. I mourn it's loss as I would a best friend.
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drunky
Social climber
flagstaff,az
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Jul 25, 2005 - 06:39pm PT
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I think the main thing that needs to be said here has to do with responsibility. Lober has ruined many peoples lives through his "legal" powers. Yet when it was proven that his actions in fact were illegal ,we was not held responsible, but the peoples lives still remained ruined. He arrested/harrassed people on SAR that saved his life at one time or another. I for one cannot believe he is allowed to have a gun, much less a badge.
Oh, and about the guns, remember that park rangers were cleared to be LEO after that LEO shot himself and blamed it on someone else. What was that NWA phrase?
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Good Morning!
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Jul 26, 2005 - 06:06pm PT
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"I think the main thing that needs to be said here has to do with responsibility. Lober has ruined many peoples lives through his "legal" powers. Yet when it was proven that his actions in fact were illegal ,we was not held responsible, but the peoples lives still remained ruined. "
TROLL! (It's gotta be, right?)
"He arrested/harrassed people on SAR that saved his life at one time or another."
Yup, being on the team does not exempt you from the rules - even if you did save Lober's life. Sounds fair.
" I for one cannot believe he is allowed to have a gun, much less a badge."
Well he is and does. Get over it.
"Oh, and about the guns, remember that park rangers were cleared to be LEO after that LEO shot himself and blamed it on someone else."
Drunky lives up to his name. Commissioned Rangers have been carrying weapons from probably (evidently) before you were born.
So which Ranger "shot himself" ? Name? MYTH! (Check your facts rather than repeating fireside chatter).
"What was that NWA phrase?"
I think it was "Don't post unless you know what you're talking about."
Drunky, I'm going to put this all down to a sad attempt at a troll.
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dmitry
Trad climber
Chita, Russia
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Jul 26, 2005 - 06:14pm PT
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"Sometimes smoke isn't smoke.
It can turn out to be dust or steam or even mist.
The native name for Victoria Falls translates as the smoke that thunders.
Assumptions may be the greatest danger we face. "
Ron,
The longer I live in the US, the more clearly I see the great danger of NOT making assumptions and NOT speaking out against what may (or may not) be an evil. At least speaking out, not sitting back, assuming that things are being done for good reasons, that others know what's better.
I lived in Siberia for over twenty years with that reluctance around me to confront things head on.
I am not making any personal attacks here, simply expressing that it really is OK to point out what appears wrong and not feel apologetic about it.
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Wrathchild
climber
right behind you
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Jul 26, 2005 - 08:30pm PT
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I don't know his name, but I was in the park when that ranger shot himself and said someone else did it. I am pretty sure I read in the paper that he eventually confessed. It was about 6 or 7 years back, and I didn't know there was going to be a quiz...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 27, 2005 - 01:32am PT
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Dmitry, tovarich, I'm all for speaking out but it can be a fine line between righteous indignation and smearing. Having been the subject of such a campaign I try to use care with my footwork. Keeping it firsthand helps reduce BS.
Karl, well said, except perhaps for driving your karma (in or even out of the valley.)
Do I understand correctly that rangers who are NOT bonafide LEOs are going strapped?
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Jul 27, 2005 - 09:16am PT
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Karl mentioned that, "both veterans and newbies, on the crags" speaking of SAR folks.
My question is and maybe I've been out of the scene too long, but since when did they start letting noobs to climbing get on YOSAR?
Wrathchild then bravely stated: "On another point, people rely too heavily on SAR. Personally, I would NEVER call for a rescue"
While in theory this is a fine idea, that if you really, really need a rescue, and it's there for the asking, you'll give it a pass and die. I would like to think I would do the same, but truthfully, I think both of us would be hollering just as loud as anyone if we needed to get plucked.
I know a guy who probably mirrors your sentiments to the Nth degree, yet he has had to ask to get pulled off, not once but twice. Oh he's also climbed over 50 separtate El Cap routes, so he ain't some lightweight.
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Wrathchild
climber
right behind you
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Jul 27, 2005 - 10:35am PT
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Think want you want, but I go prepared for what is out there. I don't believe in putting anothers life in jeopardy to save mine. I am prepared to meet whatever fate awaits me. I have carried on with broken bones, and weathered multi-day storms. I have refused rescue before. I did accept a helicopter ride after an avalanche, but I did not call for the rescue. They were already there, and I had already rescued myself. It was more like hitch-hiking than being rescued.
It isn't bravado, it is a wish to play for higher stakes. I am not some weekend duffer with children and a mortgage, I have no other reason for living than to adventure in the mountains, and to progress toward enlightenment.
Say what you will, but you don't know me.
If I perish on the Captain, all I ask is that the next party chop me like a chicken rivet, a small price to pay for the rack they will booty.
I haven't hit 50 routes, I'm in the high 20's. There are only 2 others I even want to climb. Are you talking about the gerbil?
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 27, 2005 - 12:14pm PT
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So, if you fell and broke your back on a ledge halfway up, you'd seriously prefer to die there than to have werner and the gang haul your ass out of there? That just doesn't make any sense to me.
I mean, I generally climb wayyyy out in the desert, usually out of cell range anyway, so I've little hope of a timely rescue most of the time, and I definitely come as prepared as humanly possible, but if I do find myself unable to handle some unforseen situation safely, and I *do* have cell coverage, then I'll damn well use it rather than die!
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 27, 2005 - 12:26pm PT
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AngryT
I’m going to go out on the line here and say Fu-ck You prick …. because that’s what you deserve. Your head is blowing out your ass as you can’t even get your own facts straight.
Dip sh-it if you only knew the real truth. …..
So learn to STFU unless you know WTF you're talking about!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 27, 2005 - 12:33pm PT
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Can't Say, I meant newbie to SAR, not newbie to climbing.
While I have shivered on El Cap while folks were being rescued all around, if rockfall devastated my ropes halfway up, I would certainly let the SAR folks have an adventure and collect their wages to save my butt.
Peace
Karl
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Jul 27, 2005 - 12:41pm PT
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AngryT,
Why all the hostility man?? Do this thread, and yourself, a service by stating your opinion without the vicious attacks. All anger is rooted in fear. What is it that you really fear AngryT?? I really would like to hear you angle on things, but
I'm afraid your head is gonna explode!
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 27, 2005 - 12:42pm PT
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AngryT
My response had nothing to do with SAR it's your misinformation and personal attacks on people when you don’t even know the facts. Personally I don’t give as sh-it what you think of me. I just really don’t fu-cking care!
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Jul 27, 2005 - 01:06pm PT
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SO let me get this right... An LEO shoots himself in the leg, LIES about it, causes lots of time and dollars to be wasted, and ALL he gets is transferred?!?! WTF? I would think that episode, alone, shows that he has NONE of the qualities necessary, nor desired, for a position in LE. It shows he's a danger to others and himself.
I mean, OK, so dipsh|t shot himself in the leg... I supopse it happens...? But to LIE about it, blame someone else and cause a manhunt, etc... He should not only have lost his job (AS LEO for NP permanently), but should have faced a civil chargesas well. At the least.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 27, 2005 - 01:07pm PT
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Werner, you sound angry. Drink two beers and call your Wall Doctor in the morning.
Hi Randy, long time no type, eh? Concur with everything you write above! You should tell your "getting tooled" story sometime. Incidentally, I bought my airplane ticket, and I'm arriving Monday afternoon September 12. Cheers, mate.
Wrathchild wrote,
"Think want you want, but I go prepared for what is out there. I don't believe in putting anothers life in jeopardy to save mine. I am prepared to meet whatever fate awaits me. I have carried on with broken bones, and weathered multi-day storms. I have refused rescue before. I did accept a helicopter ride after an avalanche, but I did not call for the rescue... It isn't bravado, it is a wish to play for higher stakes. I am not some weekend duffer with children and a mortgage, I have no other reason for living than to adventure in the mountains, and to progress toward enlightenment. Say what you will, but you don't know me. If I perish on the Captain, all I ask is that the next party chop me like a chicken rivet..."
Say what I will? Uh, OK. [Harumph] "Bullsh*t"
It's true I don't know you, mate. However I would like to, and would buy you a beer just to meet you. Please do not mistake my harumph for a personal attack, because it's not. It's very interesting what you say, because I believe that you believe what you have written.
But here's what I don't believe: that you - or anyone else - who is in a near-death situation on El Capitan, with a rescuer dangling from a rope with outstretched arms and who says, "take my hand, I offer life" would refuse said offer.
I can't believe that you, or anyone else, would say, "No thanks, just leave me here to die."
At least not on El Cap. If you were dying up on a real mountain somewhere, where rescue involved substantial risk to lives of the rescuers, I can believe that a person might consider refusing rescue. But El Capitan is next to the road, and there is arguably the world's best high-angle rescue team ready, willing and able to pluck you off of the wall and save your dying ass, without a lot* of real risk to themselves. [*for the purposes of discussion, let us consider this risk to be "reasonable"]
So while this bravado sounds good in theory - and makes great scenes in Hollywood movies - I have a very hard time believing that anyone would choose death over rescue.
In fact, I would *LOVE* to read any account where such a thing has actually happened! I have a hard time believing this is so, because my self-preservation instinct is so high, but maybe it really has happened in real life.
[harumph]
OK, back to coffee.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Jul 27, 2005 - 01:07pm PT
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Much better AngryT. Let the inquisition continue!!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Jul 27, 2005 - 01:27pm PT
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{sigh} Dingus, you're being a bit anal this morning, aren't you?
I meant, "I cannot believe that anyone who would otherwise die would refuse rescue." Warren Harding wasn't about to die, as proved by the fact he summitted on his own steam.
Well, maybe his situation was a bit more dire - I heard he was low on wine reserves. That alone might be enough [for someone like me] to call for rescue.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Jul 27, 2005 - 01:31pm PT
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werner wrote:
Dip sh-it if you only knew the real truth. …..
So learn to STFU unless you know WTF you're talking about!
we're all on the edge of our seats out here werner, so tell us all about what he's talking about already! it was 12 years ago? in 93? so why not break w/ the details? let's have it...
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