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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 13, 2009 - 04:55pm PT
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Rgold, I agree with you 100% on the tag line system. The times that I have used that system, IC and aid climbing etc. I use one of my 1/2 ropes as the tagline. I know i can lead on it and use it for a rescue. The 1st time I went out west RR, Zion, Etc. in 86 we led on a 50m 11mm and we had a 50m X11mm tag line. THAT was HEAVY setup! We were cutting edge modern at the time as those 11mm ropes were the latest rage ;) Back home in the east I usually did multi pitch with a single 11mm X 50m, no tag line and just hoped that nothing went wrong. We allmost never rapped... We allmost allways hiked off the top.
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murf02
climber
NYC
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Apr 13, 2009 - 04:55pm PT
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" As long as the rope runs relativly straight and are relativle close to each other you can fall all day on them and it won't matter one tiny little bit that both strands are clipped to the same draw. I have tested this very thouroghly."
This suggest that clipping both double ropes to the first piece off the belay would not only reduce the factor 2 on a single rope but friction and melt shouldn't be an issue as well?
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Apr 13, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
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Wow, thanks for that link. Totally debunks what I had believed about doubles and impact force =:-O
The dynamic 8.3's seem to be rated at 10 UIAA falls for both the new and old models. With the older (non-twin-certified) model, it sounds as though using them as twins on bolts is probably ok, but maybe not such a great idea if on trad pro ..
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jbar
Social climber
urasymptote
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Apr 13, 2009 - 10:32pm PT
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rhyang - Not to be judged but I have an old 8.3 I bought to cut down on weight for an alpine trip I took years ago. Ended up leading a few sport routes and top roping a couple of climbs because it was all I had. Didn't take any extreme falls on it but it handled the use fine. Best I can remember it was rated at 7 falls so it may be different than the new one.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Apr 13, 2009 - 11:38pm PT
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here is a real simple math approach to the falling aspects,
might get you in the ball park.
if the lines twist and form a "braid" while falling, the straight fiber count approach goes out the window as the sheaths will bind at some point, right?
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Mar'
Trad climber
Tustin
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Apr 14, 2009 - 01:15am PT
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I took a hundred footer on overhanging ice on Papa Bear when it turned into a slush-fest and I got spit out on a pair of skinnies in the olden-days. I'd clipped into separate biners on separate single-length slings hitched to a single screw. The screw was in a solid hummock of blue ice. It was pointing UP at about 80 degrees, 40' below my high point. I never touched anything on the way down and the take-up of energy was a very curious experience. Gentle, yet dynamic. The ropes MUST have stretched at LEAST twenty feet. Overall, that fall was a very pleasant event. The ropes stretching then rebounding took a long time~ and so did the fall!
It was the rebound that kicked my ass! That was a LOT of force and fortunately I hit the wall squarely and perfectly flat against my back during my violent UPWARD vector. We didn't always wear helmets in those days, but Bruce Nyberg at the Rock+Ice had set me up with a slightly over-size hand-laid "Joe Brown" fiberglass shelled motorcycle style foam-laminate job. He said to get it over-size so with a ski-hat on the helmet wouldn't just sit on top of my head like a cherry on an ice-cream sundae.
Well, my head was part of my body in those days and the impact completely killed that helmet. The shell was not "broken", but it was permanently toast with a nasty fracture along the lower back portion and the inner dense foam liner was badly deformed.
When I stopped bouncing I was very strangely angry and yelled to be lowered! Bob Horton, who had just saved my life, kneeled in the snow with the shaft of one of my tools buried spike down about five feet from him. He'd unclipped from the anchor and jumped/run/fallen down the slope to take up the slack and I was dangling about 20' shy of the base of the ice.
When I got down I told Bob that it was his turn to lead!
I love double-roping and all it's advantages. I've never used one in Yosemite or Jtree though. For sure on some Tahquitz routes and in the mountains. I'd use a pair of 8s or on diceyer stuff, a single rated 9 with an 8.5.
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adam d
climber
CA
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Apr 14, 2009 - 02:11am PT
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Yikes Mar!
I've had a couple sets of Mammut Genesis 8.5 double ropes...they're great. I've done some simul mountain routes with one of 'em, a few times with each person carrying coils and ~30m between us, sometimes just doubled over and simuling on 2 strands of 30m of 8.5. It's nice to be light but still be able to rap 60m. After logging plenty of air time, especially in the Gunks on these ropes in a double setup, I've got a lot of faith in them. Getting caught by two ropes, each on some small piece of gear really increases my "go for it" above little pro. If the edges aren't too much of a concern and you aren't really dogging it, I find these doubles to be a great option for climbing in a party of 3, though on harder/sharper/more serious routes I revert back to leading on two singles or caterpillar style with two thicker ropes.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 14, 2009 - 08:51am PT
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The biggest advantage pro wise with the doubbles is the ability to place 2 seperate pieces of pro and have each piece clipped to a different rope. No idea what the actual impact forces on each piece are in that scenario but they must be lighter than anything you could conjer up with a single rope.
Interesting to note that the monster ice whipper on a screw up post was both ropes clipped to the same screw. Everything worked out just fine. Every time these threads pop up someone proclaims that clipping both ropes to one piece will kill you. Read the directions when you buy the damn rope and please stop telling me that I will die if I follow them ;)
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Apr 14, 2009 - 08:57am PT
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We use our doubles for all trad routes,unless we plan to toprope after,which happens about once a year.Tradchick learned to belay on doubles and is a master.No reason you shouldn't be able to manage someone clipping over their head while maintaining on the other line.
Tag lines,by comparison,seem moronic.10 mm plus 7 mm is 17 mm,but you have only one advantage here,rapping.8.5+8.5=17,but opens door to all half rope advantages,safer clips,wandering pro,double pro at crux,protection in event of rope getting cut,don't need a cordelette(gasp!),or PAS,can recover stuck rope,protect the second.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 14, 2009 - 09:07am PT
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I totally agree that the double system is great for multi pitch and long single pitch. I merly contend that there are climbing scenarios where the single rope system is great as well.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 14, 2009 - 10:32am PT
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Same trip but 2 different scenarios. I really wish we had a fat single for the Aid pitch.
I ended up climbing this pitch instead of jugging it but the ropes still got buggered up a bit on the sharp drilled angles.
May be hard to see in the small photo but that is 2 9mm Mammuts running through each draw.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Apr 14, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
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So all you guys that are belay aces with double ropes, what is your strategy at stance/hanging belays? My partner and I climbed with doubles early in our career, quit, and then tried again for a season or two (much later and much more rope proficient). The place where we really got slowed down is when the leader is at a stance belay and the second is coming up moderate terrain. With a single, the second could run up the pitch arriving out of breath (we often lead in blocks). With doubles, the rope management made the second climb at a leisurely place. We've tried: stuffing both ropes into one bag, no tangles but extremely slow; and flaking over a sling, which is quicker initially, but eventually you lose all of your time savings when the inevitable tangles arrive. I know, some will claim we need better rope management skills, but when climbing with a single, if a rope picks up some pig's tail cork screw, not a big deal. With doubles, what do you do? Throw the ropes out? And doubles make the leading in blocks problematic. As a leisurely, fun, multi-pitch style, doubles worked fine for us and no real complaints. But for the hurry-up style, a lot of frustrations.
Unless the rap line does not come back down the climb, we usually just take a single skinny 70m (no tag) figuring we can make most raps and leave a sling or stopper if not.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 14, 2009 - 12:47pm PT
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August, your style is faster, simpler and easier. Us old fuddy duddys just like our security blankets. That extra rope gives us lots of options to make the climbing safer and retrete easier;)
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Apr 14, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
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August, I'm not really a good person to reply because I'm not a big fan of the hurry-up style. Still, the issues you raise apply to those who prefer to travel at a more (ahem) stately pace.
If leading in blocks (something I never do), I think there are two solutions, neither of them fast: either switch ends of the rope or restack the pile. Trying to turn it over and have it run will be a disaster enough of the time so that it isn't worth it.
For long multipitch routes without good ledges for piling the rope, I have found the Metolius rope hook to be a superb rope organizer. While belaying, you can throw coils over the hook as fast as you can take in rope. The coils do not have to be specially sized as they do when flaking over a sling, the tie-in, or your feet, because with the hook you do not have to pull the coils out. Instead, you simply pick up the rope at the top of the coil and drop it---it automatically frees itself of any loops it might have wanted to capture had it been pulled. Absolutely no tangles and as fast to load and unload as you can handle the rope.
A little gimmicky but worth the time savings and handling ease in my opinion.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Apr 14, 2009 - 02:11pm PT
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Trying to turn it over and have it run will be a disaster enough of the time so that it isn't worth it.
We do that (flipping the ropes over from one daisy to the other) a fair bit, and rarely have any problems. However, we mostly move at fairly low speed, and have the time to sort out the rare tangles that do occur.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 14, 2009 - 02:18pm PT
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I either restack or retie. restack is best. It gets you warmed up again and the blood back in your fingers.
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dustonian
climber
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Apr 14, 2009 - 03:58pm PT
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Two ropes are retarded unless you're wandering all over the place or climbing sharp crap or ice. Who wants to drag up a collective 17+mm of rope??!??! And then when you fall one little skinny bullshit rope catches you anyway.... fukkin genius!
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Apr 14, 2009 - 04:26pm PT
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Guess that depends on how you are getting down eh?
We usually restack.Key to success is not getting the pigstails to begin with.Don't tie the ropes together when you rappel,tie separate stopper knots,and don't let the lower one run over the upper one when you rappel,look some time and you can see the troubles forming.On a steep route we'll often cut them loose if it's knott windy.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Apr 14, 2009 - 09:11pm PT
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We do that (flipping the ropes over from one daisy to the other) a fair bit, and rarely have any problems. However, we mostly move at fairly low speed, and have the time to sort out the rare tangles that do occur.
I've been climbing for more than fifty years and I think I need rope stacking lessons. When I flip one of those piles, I get the mother of all Gordian knots half the time.
While I'm at it, would someone like to teach me how to throw rappel ropes? No matter what method I try, I seem to be able to magically create knots and tangles, not to mention snagging every nubbin, flake, crystal, and twig in the universe.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 14, 2009 - 11:14pm PT
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Ain't that the truth!, i can't even flip over a stack of single rope without makeing salad and TWIGS! I effin hate twigs and sticks. They get in the middle of a pile of rappel rope and make a frickin ceasar salad out of the damn thing....... :)
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