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Dirk
Trad climber
...and now, Manhattan
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Apr 12, 2009 - 10:16pm PT
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But why us? So the town of Gardiner screwed you -- now you are mad at the climbers?
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richross
Trad climber
gunks,ny
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Apr 12, 2009 - 11:08pm PT
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Caped Crusader Vader.
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Caped Crusader
Trad climber
Gardiner, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2009 - 09:09am PT
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From Dirk "But why us? So the town of Gardiner screwed you -- now you are mad at the climbers?"
Because there were many climbers involved at every step in the process. In the very beginning, years ago at a town comprehensive plan meeting, run by a Mohonk Preserve paid consultant, a climber took a magic marker out of a ridge landowners hand and used it to draw all over maps of private land on the ridge saying "we want this, and this and this". I'm paraphrasing. On the other end of the process, last year, when the Wustrau's got variances so they could build their driveway, climbers sat on the board of directors of the (supposed) Friends of the Shawangunks when FOS sued the Wustraus in an attempt to have the variances voided.
Rich, nice garb which provides me with a segue to the fact that many of us landowners along the ridge regard the Preserve as something of an Evil Empire. After all, they are the ones with the $100,000 a year Executive Director, a public relations or spin doctoring staff, extensive connections with politicians and publishers, operating out of their multi-million dollar visitor center, with their millions of dollars, and a phalanx of lawyers. They and their partners are the ones who have used the trickery of quit claim deeds, the bullying of litigation, and lobbying for zoning that greatly devalues the land of their neighbors. Who's Darth Vader now?
Caped Crusader aka Luke Skywalker
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
the base of the Shawangunk Ridge
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Apr 17, 2009 - 11:29pm PT
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Hi-
I just wanted to say that i have looked into some of the issues that we have been kicking around here and talked to some others who are better informed than I and I see where the land owners are coming from. I also wish that climbing access didnt have to be revoked and maybe it won't have to be, but it really is pretty weak for the Preserve to strong arm the private sector like the are trying to do.
That said, I feel like more climbers are able to be reached through reason and persuasion than taking away climbing. Regardless, I have seen things differently and for what its worth I am reneging on some of the views I espoused without getting all the details.
I doubt I can do anything to assuage the conflict, but if I can or could I certainly would be interested in helping and to that end I am going to shut up and accept the closures such as they are for the time being in hopes that this all gets ironed out.
Steve
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Apr 18, 2009 - 12:20am PT
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Kent, I rarely climb in the Nears.
But I do respect private property rights. I have a hard time understanding the entitlement attitudes of some (I hope only a minority) climbers.
I would be willing to bet that most of the "entitlement" types would be speed-dialing 911 if you showed up deer-hunting in their posted "no hunting - no trespassing" back yards (even if they were renters).
Of course, the real question is what is the size of the intersection of the set of entitlement climbers and set of property owners!
Another example of the entitlement mentality:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=837538
LOL!
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