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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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So perhaps there is more than one lesson.
I don't see anything wrong with borrowing from the wisdom of a related discipline.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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thanks to those involved for the details.
what a tragedy.
i have a slight gripe w/ the description of certain behaviors simply as "complacent".
it seems that we are still left to assume certain things because nobody remembers exactly what happened up there, but this incident reminds me of other accidents which i have read abut concerning parties of 3 (remember some guy falling from a belay on nutcracker a few years back? maybe he was norwegian or something?)
it seems to me that these situations can get confusing because the typical sequence of events is slightly corrupted-
the anchor is being shared, and tasks are often shared.
there is a climber waiting to follow.
there is a climber wanting to be lowered (or getting ready to lead away when the team is ready?)
the belayer is (or may be) changing.
tie-ins may even change.
what is missing is the effort to slow down and clearly communicate about each situation separately-
who is doing what?
who has done what?
what needs to be done?
in what order?
anyway, woody led, al followed.
did they each think the other had tied al in to the anchor?
were they going to bring TGT up by attaching a device to the anchor (in which case al may have not ever tied in), or would al have had to tie in before belaying?
don't get me wrong, I AM NOT ASKING THESE QUESTIONS
it's just my point that communicating clearly about what needs to be done, and who is taking what responsibilities, is critical, and in certain situations, circumstances can make the tasks and the sequence of events less obvious.
as a final point, i also disagree that rappelling is safer than lowering, and my reading of ANAM certainly does not support that conclusion.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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EDIT - post removed at what seem to be the wishes of the bereaved
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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here's a few where lowering may be better than rap:
Skinny rope. More friction can be figured into the system if you lower them. Maybe their device is worn?
n00b. nuff said.
Unknown length between stations or no stations. That way they can climb back up on belay instead of derigging a rap and then self belaying or establishing a new belay from the leader above.
Icy ropes
Bad anchor/no anchor and leader then walks off
any sort of injury
To clip directionals for a 3rd to follow the route and you have only one rope
In the dark looking for the next station near a rope length out.
(space reserved for more)
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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i think in another thread would be more appropriate(?) and i cannot write i out now as i am about to sack out- if there were a thread (maybe there even has been a thread?) i'd be happy to post up there soon.
i would just say that the act of rappelling seems responsible for a disproportionately high # of incidents if you cruise the ANAM over the years, while lowering seems less so (no that is not a scientific analysis, i agree).
there are ways to make rapping a bit safer, but some are only marginally effective and others are seldom used.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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EDIT - post removed at what seem to be the wishes of the bereaved
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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if you belay from the top of a pitch, immediately lowering the 2nd means they never untie, and aside from setting up a lowering point on the anchor (easy) is pretty simple- sometimes there is something to re-weighting the rope and being prepared for a change in force as the 2nd is lowered over an edge.
(could that have happened to al? might not have mattered that he was not anchored if he'd been lowering through a point on the anchor- but i am unfamiliar with the terrain right there, and generally not wanting to speculate.
SLOW DOWN
COMMUNICATE
that's the lesson, as i see it.
good night, peace to those who could use some of it.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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I think I use those methods I listed more than standard rappels!
And that's at Josh!
Nutshell of a typical climb that I might do: (lIke at Josh, 1 to 2 pitch sorta stuff, not able to slingshot)
I lead the thing and set an anchor, if I can, usually on the top of the crag. Sometimes well back from the lip, but mostly as pro will allow.
I tie up the anchor with the lead line connected to my normal waist tie in, and move to near the lip.
I belay Susan up, from my waist, usually while sitting down, semi tight with the anchor.
She tops out in record time.... I immediately lower her back to the ground, sometimes a full 200+ feet, as long as the rope ain't grinding. If it is a grinder, she will single line rap it to the base instead of being lowered.
I pluck the anchor, drop the rope, and do some sketch asss walk off or downclimb, or even two raps if there is an obvious station mid way down.
Repeat until beer:30.
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dmalloy
Trad climber
eastside
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EDIT - post removed at what seem to be the wishes of the bereaved
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ninjakait
Trad climber
a place where friction routes have velcro
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So, I am going to fight this battle because my father cannot. I have given this a lot of thought and basically this is what it boils down to for me:
People screw up. Accidents happen no matter how much we may think that we are in control, there is always that chance for error. This is exactly what happened and my dad is dead. Get over it. I do not mean to sound callous but honestly, how many of you have had someone you loved die then have their honor and memory beaten down by a bunch of speculation and bullshit by people who don't even know them. Yes, it is important to understand what happened but on the other hand, how sure are you that you won't absentmindedly do the same thing a week from now and have your brains dashed out on the ground? Would you bet your life on it? Well, you do every time you strap on those shoes and tie into a rope.
Oh, and to the guy who mentioned helmets, well in response to that I say thank god my dad wasn't wearing one or else he'd probably be some poor pathetic vegetable waiting for his life to end painfully. That is no life.
We climb because we love it but if you think that for a second you are completely safe you are too damn cocky. The only lesson I've learned is that we are all a bunch of damned fools. This is life, it's bittersweet but that is just how things roll. As much as we might wish to we cannot plan our lives according to when and how we think it should end. So, do not for one iota of a second even begin to think that in whatever way you are far superior to those before you or after you and that you yourself are not expendable in the grand scheme of things.
Time and death wait for no man. In life my father was much to admire and I think that even in death we should remember him as such. Let the man be.
Climb on.
-Tia
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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sorry for your loss Tia. I'm not much for advice in this kind of circumstance, if I were you I'd avoid reading all the crap people write here...or at least try to filter out anything but support towards you, your family, friends and loved ones. best wishes to you.
Rock climbing is dangerous, and sh#t happens. be careful ot there folks.
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MH2
climber
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In life my father was much to admire
Yes.
I wish that in the analyses the names were not used. I can learn just as much from climber 1,2, and 3.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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wow i really thought i was being careful not to post anything that might somehow be offensive. please just let me know if you were referring to my post(s) and i'll pull them immediately. somehow i think you are addressing earlier posts? not sure. certainly sorry if i offended you in any way- wasn't my intention, sorry, and of course sorry for your loss.
People screw up. Accidents happen no matter how much we may think that we are in control, there is always that chance for error. This is exactly what happened and my dad is dead. Get over it. I do not mean to sound callous but honestly, how many of you have had someone you loved die then have their honor and memory beaten down by a bunch of speculation and bullshit by people who don't even know them. Yes, it is important to understand what happened but on the other hand, how sure are you that you won't absentmindedly do the same thing a week from now and have your brains dashed out on the ground? Would you bet your life on it? Well, you do every time you strap on those shoes and tie into a rope.
everything there is true.
most accept that understanding the mistakes which lead to accidents (or near accidents) helps others prevent them, at least to some degree,
still nothing makes it "safe" out there.
peace
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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ummm... deleted I guess.
dmalloy: check your email
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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This is why I care about hearing the story. Stories back up lessons. They make them much more powerful. The problem is that it must truly suck to have a friend or family member be the object of the story and I am very sorry that Woody lost his life and that Al and Wendell and Locker and others lost a friend and that Tia and others lost a member of their family and I really wish that this didn't happen. But it did, and the only good that can come from this is that it can help others remember important lessons.
I am a noob climber. I will never be anything more then a noob climber. I know about checking gear. I ask my friends to check theirs, but lets face it, I am a noob asking very experienced climbers to do things having to do with climbing. Some of my friends are very good climbers or at least very experienced. After Todd Skinner died, I had all my friends check their harnesses. Before that accident I can guarantee you that some of them would have blown me off. What do I know, I am a noob. They have yadda yadda years of experience. Now I can tell them to suck it up and check, and I can double check what they tell me by checking with my other friends. So I have some methods of checking up on them because I want them to stay safe and I have the power of an example. Am I glad that this happened so I can have a more powerful lesson? No no no. Of course not.
It must really suck to have lost a friend or a family member to climbing. From what I heard about Todd Skinner, he was a great person. It is probably really hard for his family members to remember him this way and as we can see here, it is really hard for the friends and family of Woody to remember him this way, but there it is. That is the realities of climbing and the realities of life. Sometimes things happen that are really hard to deal with. I really feel for Karen, and Tia, and Locker and all of Woody's friends and family. I know that it must be hard.
So what do we do? We can try to help Woody's family and friends heal and We do the best we can to learn whatever we can from these tragedies so that hopefully we can keep them from happening to others. The story really does help with this process. I am just sorry that some couldn't be a bit more patient and I wish that this process was easier, but its not. I can tell you one thing though. Even though many here did not know Woody personally, they knew him through this forum, and some felt very close to him. So hearing the facts of the story is important because it helps them have closure. I know that the word closure is often over used, but it does have its place and I believe that it applies here.
Knowing what happened wont bring Woody back, nor will it heal Al, or Tia, or Locker, or anyones heart, but it does help put to rest the nagging in ones mind about what happened to a friend. It is not always about being ghoulish, though some might be voyeuristic. It can also be about wanting to know what happened to a friend. Hearing that he died doesn't cut it. He was a friend to many here. Nor does Hearing a lesson second hand without the story accomplish much. The lesson without the story lacks impact. The story is important. So thank you Wendell for sharing it. I am really sorry for your loss.
I will tell you another thing. My climber friends don't give me any sh#t about checking their harnesses for wear, and now they wont be giving me any crap about checking their setups.
None of this will bring Woody back. No lesson is really worth the loss of someone's life. I pretty much figure that Karen and Tia and Locker are going to be messed up over this for some time and will probably be very angry for a time and for quite awhile they aren't going to give a plugged nickel for any "lesson" that anyone learned, because they are hurting. Yet one day I think that they will see the value in learning as much from these tragedies as one can, because likely they have other loved ones who still climb, and they will want them to be safe.
Thats all I have to say. I am sorry if it is a bit long.
So long Woody. See you in your next lifetime.
John
Edit: Sorry, one more thing.
Locker, my friend from the Taco stand. Don't you dare take any blame for what happened to Woody. Woody would probably kick your ass for trying to take any blame. He was his own man and he would never ever blame you for what he did or didn't do. So suck it up and stop blaming yourself.
Sorry man for sounding so harsh. I just figured someone had to talk to you how I think Woody would have. I know I only know Woody from the forum, but from what you have said, that is part of how I picture him straightening you out. If I am wrong, then I apologize.
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the_don
Trad climber
Somerville, MA
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First off I want to extend my condolences to all of those involved in this accident. And, thank you for being willing to share this story so that others might learn.
I wanted to see if you could clear up one last source of confusion in Clint's description of the mechanics of the accident.
6. Kwok fell 65' (approx.) and was held by the second rope at this point (the haul loop on the back of his harness was strong enough). [Edit:] During the 65' fall, Kwok did not lose control of the lowering device. Stark fell 100' total to the ground, receiving a fatal head injury.
7. Smith untied Stark from the lead line, to relieve pressure on Kwok.
If Al had already lowered Woody 35', then did Woody actually fall 65', rather than 100'? Or were they lowering off at a point more than 100' off the ground?
Is it correct that the lead line from Woody to Al was loaded after the fall, although Woody was on the ground?
Again, I am sorry for the pain felt by all involved and otherwise connected with this accident.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Tia makes an entrance to the Taco stand worthy of Woody's daughter! Welcome!
Similar to what I posted on another thread she writes
"People screw up. Accidents happen no matter how much we may think that we are in control, there is always that chance for error. This is exactly what happened and my dad is dead. "
Yup, in the wrong circumstances I've seen every stripe of climber "almost" do something that would have thoughtlessly got them killed.
Some climbers keep their attention span of "mindfulness" more regularly than others. That keeps them safer "but not safe" If there is any lesson, and I think this applies to safety on and off the crags, it's to be aware of what you are doing at all times. Accidents just don't happen near as often when you are "fully present in the here and now."
Folks are uncomfortable with death and trauma, particularly when it happens to somebody they know and are familiar with. They don't know what to say appropriately and have to convince themselves through analysis what the lessons and proceedures should be to keep it from happening again. (even if that might not be effective)
So, with respect, just as Tia asks us to get over the fact that her Dad messed up and got killed, it would serve everyone here to understand that people are going to talk about and analyze this so that's another thing we should just "get over" If someobody crosses the line and post about it inappropriately, email them offline and ask for an edit or delete so the threads don't turn into flame fests about posting.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Pretty lame forcing censorship onto people posting their analysts here.
This is pretty disturbing .... shameful
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Wes Allen
Boulder climber
KY
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Sorry for everyone involved, no doubt. We lost two young climbers to a preventable accident last fall, and many people are still hurting over it. I drive by that cliff nearly every day...
It is tricky to balance getting info out, with consideration for those involved. This is something I wrote on a thread about Ben and Laura...
"I know there are always lot of questions, but in the end, maybe the exact answers are not so important, all that really matters is something went wrong, and the consequences are severe. And that, to me, is the lessen to take away from any accident."
Peace and good vibes to those that are hurting.
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ninjakait
Trad climber
a place where friction routes have velcro
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"Pretty lame forcing censorship onto people posting their analysts here.
This is pretty disturbing ...."
I am neither forcing censorship nor have I asked anyone to delete their posts. If you cannot read the posts that have been put up regarding the situation then you should take a look over them again to understand. It is all there. Also there is a difference between analysis and speculation.
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