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HovvweirdDean
climber
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Jul 11, 2005 - 03:11pm PT
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WMD's in public service. (I feel still all us, you are look attacks against admit them that Saddam had WMD's it is honorable opportunity to kill always be sore election). They don't look at Saddam had after convince wastill us. Well, I that WMD's honorable have no PROOF there libs weren't lying WMD's and supportunity to get rid our breath trying WMD's will part of why weren't lying you we were. The year+ leading to Somallies. Lois, and of think it is fairly a smalia, Haiti, or us, you won't look at us?
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jul 11, 2005 - 03:30pm PT
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"Lois, you won't ever convince them that they weren't lying. The libs still can't get over the Bush/Gore election. The libs will always be sore losers. To them, it is hate and blame America first(unless it is Clinton going to Somalia, Haiti, or the Balkans). They have no PROOF that Bush lied. They don't look at the man's honorable history in public service. They don't admit that Saddam had WMD's and used them and in the year+ leading up to the war had ample opportunity to get rid of them. They won't admit that WMD's were only a small part of why we went in there. (I feel stressing WMD's in the first place was a mistake by Bush). He said after 9/11 that if you weren't for us you were against us. Well, I think it is fairly obvious that Hussein and his regime hated us, wanted to kill us, and supported terrorist attacks against us and our allies. Lois, you are wasting your breath trying to talk sense into these close-minded people. "
Actually there is a ton of proof that Bush has lied..over and over and over. You never SEE any of it cause your lips...er eyes/ear are glued to Hannity, O'Reiley, Limbaugh and a slew of other misinformative 'sources' who invent and spin more than they discover or investigate.
His 'honorary history in public service' has been looked at very carefully and it is clear that he was more interested in politics than serving (bailing on the guard to go work on a congressional campaign), is happy to take public money for private projects (building a stadium for his baseball team) and as Governor of Texas sent the state spiraling toward financial ruin and got out just in time to be President and left the mess for his successor to clean up.
There is no proof that Saddam had WMD's in the year before the war at ALL! In fact all of the actual exsperts who have reported on this issue have stated that the capacity of Iraq to produce, and their stockpiles of WMD's had been destroyed before 1998. Stressing WMD's was CLEARLY a mistake in the first place by Bush because it WASN'T TRUE but he knew the only way he could even come close to sellin the war was if he convinced Americans that Iraq was an 'imminent threat' to our lives. He had to shift the momentum of the post-9/11 fear of terrorism to Iraq and WMD's was the only thing that would stick.
Which terrorist attacks did Saddam support against us exactly? There waqs some evidence that he was suppoting some of the attack in Israel but only after we jumped all over him in 2002/2003. The reports that I have heard were that IRAN was the one actively supporting attacks against the USA. Meanwhile actual and documented WMD's have been researched and produced in N. Korea.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jul 12, 2005 - 04:20am PT
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While the images of sexy 20-something ahram chicks is nice...lets not hijack too hard eh?
http://usconservatives.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins200507070938.asp
"It is doubtful that these attacks will influence British policy, at least in any way favorable to al Qaeda or its ideological allies. Londoners are no strangers to terror attacks. According to the MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base, there have been 126 terrorist incidents in London since the late Sixties, making it among the most targeted European capitals. (Note: There have been 309 attacks in Paris over the same period.) London has been attacked not only by the IRA, but also the Popular Front for the Liberation, Hamas, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the Abu Nidal Group, and now al Qaeda. Not to mention the Blitz during World War II. If Hitler's Luftwaffe could not break Britain's will, what chance do the terrorists have?"
For those of you who still make arguments about Europe being removed from the terrorist threat or somesuch nonesense.
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Blight
Social climber
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Jul 12, 2005 - 08:11am PT
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I'd agree with that.
The american public is only just beginning to grapple with the dawning realisation that what the threats their government told them to to be afraid of are imaginary, and that they were lied to and abused by them.
It's true that america has little experience of war and terrorism compared to europe, but that doesn't make it any less sad that the US reaction to terrorism - to buckle and cry, then lash out apparently randomly in a frenzy of jingoism, racism and stupidity - was so exactly what the terrorists wanted.
The british people will simply do what we've always done with terrorists - take the hits and stay standing so the police and intelligence services can do their jobs.
With luck, americans will see our example and learn to stop crying, wipe their noses and do what needs to be done instead of demanding that the government, the army, the UN, France anyone but them, solves their problems for them.
Good luck.
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Wrathchild
climber
right behind you
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Jul 12, 2005 - 10:00am PT
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Lois wrote "Now it is true that I have not been reading your posts carefully but in my own defense, KBD, they are sooo....oooo long. It is hard to read and digest as much as you offer however interesting and enlightening it might be. I think if you offered some of these ideas in smaller packages I might get more of it."
That's exactly why KDB left the forum. He took the time to carefully answer your questions and include links for further investigation, but you didn't bother to read it fully before responding.
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slayton
Trad climber
Morongo Valley, Ca
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Jul 12, 2005 - 04:05pm PT
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LEB
Because, as you say, you are so busy I have a simple suggestion for you to better utilize your time if a more thorough comprehension of history is indeed a goal of yours:
Type less. Read more.
S
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 12, 2005 - 06:14pm PT
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"HowDumbBush: BTW, they will slam Fox News all the time but none of them will ever produce any evidence that Fox is slanted toward the right. They just seem slanted because they are "fair and balanced" and next to the normal media propaganda outlets that makes them look slanted to the right. "
Fox couldn't come up with a better distortion of the truth. When you give criminals like Oliver North and fabricators like Coulter a mouthpiece, you tend to get a much deserved rep. Agenda dictates "truth" in media at Fox exactly as it does in policy in the administration. The lot are criminals and liars that parasitically live off fear and hate - this is not journalism. And the majority of males at both Fox and the administration outside of a select few were almost all draft dodgers to a man.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 12, 2005 - 08:17pm PT
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"July 9, 2005
Jihad Is Knocking
Another Episode in the War between Christendom and Islam
by Bruce Thornton
Private Papers
The slaughter in London is another grisly wake-up call that likely will go as unheeded as earlier ones. Already the standard narrative is being trotted out: evildoers created by what the New York Times predictably called the “root causes of terrorism”: autocracy, or economic stagnation, or Palestinian suffering, or globalization's dislocations, or Western historical sins, or the war in Iraq (the cause will depend on the political prejudices of the pundit) have “hijacked” Islam and distorted its peaceful message. And now they are using Islam to justify murder in order to further their own ambitions or dysfunctional psychic needs. Given this explanation, so the story goes, we must be careful not to demonize all Muslims and assure them that we respect their religion and culture. The tale is then wrapped up with fierce threats against the terrorists and protestations of admiration for Islam.
Believing this delusion requires that one ignores fourteen centuries of Islamic jihad against the West, a war of conquest and colonization ratified by centuries of Islamic theology and jurisprudence. Indeed, what we call Islamic radicals are in fact Islamic traditionalists; it is the so-called “moderates” — those wanting to compromise Islam so it can coexist with Western ideas such as secular government, separation of church and state, and human rights — who are the radicals and innovators. The terrorists are simply fulfilling the traditional and orthodox command of their religion to battle the infidels who resist the revelation of Mohammed and the global socio-political order mandated by Islam.
Listen to one of the most respected and influential of Muslim clerics, Sheikh Yousef Al-Qaradhawi, on the legitimacy of jihad: “It has been determined by Islamic law that the blood and property of people of Dar Al-Harb [the Domain of Disbelief where the battle for the domination of Islam should be waged] is not protected. Because they fight against and are hostile towards the Muslims, they annulled the protection of his blood and his property." (See Andrew Bostom:).This interpretation is entirely consistent with fourteen centuries of Islamic theology and jurisprudence, which in turn is based on the Koran's injunction to “slay them [infidels] wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter . . . . Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.” And this jihad is to continue “until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.”
Islam's divinely sanctioned entitlement to global domination explains the symbolic value of the London attacks: one day after London was chosen to host the 2012 Olympics, and right in the middle of the G8 summit in Scotland. For both the Olympics and the G8 represent a global order that rivals Islam, one based on Western ideals and institutions, a social and political order in which Islam has no exalted position but is simply one religion among many. And, we should add, a global order whose notions of individual rights and secular government are incompatible with Islamic law.
So much is obvious — facts of the historical record. Yet listen to a respected historian in a conservative magazine: “Muslim holy wars (“jihads”), as taught in the Koran, were first and foremost a personal inner struggle for moral purity” and only secondarily a war against infidels. So all those Muslim armies that conquered the Christian Near East, North Africa, Egypt, Spain, Sicily, the Balkans, all that plunder, slaughter, rape, enslavement, kidnapping, and destruction were only the “secondary” jihad. How could such blindness to the obvious, masquerading as sophisticated “tolerance,” not arouse contempt in the minds of our adversaries? They tell us over and over that they are waging jihad in order to establish the global hegemony of Islam, and we tell ourselves that these Muslims don't understand their own religion. Millions and millions of Muslims all over the world cheer for the jihadists and support them materially and psychologically, millions idolize bin Laden and celebrate the murder of Westerners, but we tell ourselves that they are a minority of confused souls whose minds have been addled by poverty or autocracy or anger over the Palestinians.
In any conflict it's a good idea to take seriously the motives the enemy professes and not rationalize or explain them away in terms of your own cultural assumptions. The murderers we call terrorists are traditional jihadists, as much as were the first Islamic armies that swept away the Judeo-Christian and Greco-Roman civilizations of the Mediterranean. They are not going to be bought off with votes, a free press, more cable channels, Wal-Mart, or any other material good that to us constitutes the good life. They are fighting for a spiritual cause, the establishment of Islam as a global order in fulfillment of the will of Allah, and the reduction of all those who will not become Muslims to dhimmi, inferiors who acknowledge the superiority of Islam and the rightness of their subjection to it.
The next few weeks will show whether the British have advanced as far down the road of dhimmitude as have the Spaniards, who responded to the murder of their citizens not with the force and resistance their ancestors showed for seven centuries, but with fear and appeasement. As for us, we'd better discard our illusions that the jihadists, as Thomas Freidman put it, are “a cancer within the [Islamic] body politic” and accept instead that jihad just may be a vital organ. Then maybe we can see this war for what it is: one more episode in the long struggle between what used to be called Christendom and a religion of aggressive conquest and colonization.
©2005 Victor Davis Hanson"
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Wrathchild
climber
right behind you
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Jul 12, 2005 - 09:06pm PT
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Be honest, who among us hasn't wanted to chuck a few grenades at Wal-mart?
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Jul 12, 2005 - 09:13pm PT
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Doesn't one also have to ignore 1500+ years of Christian crusade against the mid-east? I mean this article could literally just have the words 'Islam' replaced with 'Christianity' and the names changed to those of any myriad of Christian leaders. I mean seriously...
"Then maybe we can see this war for what it is: one more episode in the long struggle between what used to be called Christendom and a religion of aggressive conquest and colonization. "
Which religion of aggressive conquest and colonization exactly? I mean Christianity has sponsored more wars and more coloniztion attempts than any other faith in at least the past 2,000 years.
Could this article be any more biased and blameful? Are people so blind that they can not see that they are simply playing their part in the cyclical saga of the West vs. the East? We aren't doing ANYTHING differently than the western Euros of 1,000 years ago. Shakespeare would have one hell of a laugh I have no doubt.
"..and bomb them all to hell..in the name of the Lord."
Rev. J. Falwell
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 12, 2005 - 09:19pm PT
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The fight isn't with radical Islamics per se, I'm equally frightened of all fundamentalist extremists - Islamic and Christian alike. The problem isn't with a particular religion - the problem is with the extremists in all religions. These factions simply actualize the darker reality of religion that demonizes and dooms the followers of {insert religion of joice} down the street who are your neighbors as much as an Islamic extremist on the other side of the world.
You could swap "Christian" for "Muslim" and "Crusade" for "Jihad" in your posted diatribe and it would reflect as much murder, rape, and genocide. We won't even discuss the past and ongoing Christian role in the genocide of aboriginal peoples around the globe.
Biased, clueless, and hustling a christian agenda...
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 12, 2005 - 11:18pm PT
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I've read the Bible, Bagivad Gita, Secret of the Golden Flower, (Taoist),I Ching and the Koran, more theologians and philosophers than I care to remember. I don't particularly subscribe to any of them.
Only one has a consistently reoccuring theme of death and enslavement for the "other" and a theological premise for the enslavement of non believers. (find a corillary to the Dehimi in any other major religious tradition.) They hate us for who we are and what we believe. Little things like that all men and woman are created equal and that the state and religion are two different things. What we do is of no consiquence to those that dream of Andalus. That we exist at all is an afront enough to justify any slaughter of inocent life. Do most Moslems take these thing to heart? No, but they do not object in mass either. To do that would risk being branded, heretical.
Christianity has certainly been warped in past history to evil ends. Even Zen Buhdist beliefs were warped into the Bashio code that became facist Japan. If the west isn't willing to face up to the fact that we are dealing with an esentially facist belief system that has predominated the medrass and mosque in a huge part of the world, civilization eventually will decline into a Mad Max meets Gengis Khan world. We are only at the beginning of a struggle between those that see it as a devine birthright to live in a nuclear eighth century and a 3000 year tradition of western democaracy that started in Greece.
Some times you just have to pick sides.
I kind'a have gotten used to "civilization" Even with all its faults it sure beats the alternative.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 13, 2005 - 02:09am PT
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"Christianity has certainly been warped in past history to evil ends."
And still is to this day as far as I'm concerned...
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Blight
Social climber
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Jul 13, 2005 - 05:25am PT
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"civilization eventually will decline into a Mad Max meets Gengis Khan world."
Wow. You're really scared, aren't you?
It's a shame you're not brave enough to live with your fear. Instead you advocate someone else eliminating what you're scared of not because it's harming you but just because you're frightened of it.
What a way to live your life, hiding under your bed and demanding shrilly that someone kill the horrible monster you believe is going to eat you. Neither strong enough to live with it nor brave enough to do something about it yourself.
You poor weak man.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 13, 2005 - 12:28pm PT
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Dr. Strangelove speaketh!
You love the bomb--admit it.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Mar 21, 2008 - 03:54pm PT
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Amusing to see VDH exposed "again" and held up as the "Classicist". What of Lysistrata, Tom Paine, Locke, Madison, Twain or any other of the great "thinkers" who would never partake of this "Socratian poison". Take a gander at the "War Prayer" for starters, VDH....
Addend: Since OBL's stated game plan is to bleed US out man by man (4k?) and dollar by dollar (_,,_k,_,,.00?) why tf would you "capitulate"...
OBL's handed yall his playbook, yet many refuse to draw up the X's and O's....seriously. OBL sez he wants a "Long War", an economic War. Dick Cheney sez it will be a "Long War". Find out who wins (Dubai based Contractors) in "The Occupation"
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Mar 21, 2008 - 03:58pm PT
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Holy bump batman!
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