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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Oh, I'd like to believe in the force. There have been so many long days where I've sat on the couch with my beer just out of reach and I've concentrated, focused, and even prayed(?) for that bottle to float into my outstretched hand. But no. Not even a wobble.
'Beer or beer not, there is no try.'
Lifelong Star Wars fan...
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Pip, that's not my quote, but that's okay.
Cool that you met Derrida, man did that guy ever get a free pass or what? I enjoyed reading Foucault for a while there, and Lyotard made me dizzy. Also can't help seeing Christianity as a sort of ur-postmodernism, co-opting whatever tidbits of pre-existing myth that furthered its own agenda to convince people that when they die, they don't really die, but go on to some kind of disembodied subjectivity. It's made a lot of people happy to think that, so, y'know, "whatever gets you through the [dark] night [of the soul] it's alright, it's alright."
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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French Intellectuals to be Deployed to Afghanistan to Convince Taliban of Non-Existence of God
The ground war in Afghanistan heated up yesterday when the Allies revealed plans to airdrop a platoon of crack French existentialist philosophers into the country to destroy the morale of Taliban zealots by proving the non-existence of God. Elements from the feared Jean-Paul Sartre Brigade, or 'Black Berets', will be parachuted into the combat zones to spread doubt, despondency and existential anomie among the enemy. Hardened by numerous intellectual battles fought during their long occupation of Paris' Left Bank, their first action will be to establish a number of pavement Cafes at strategic points near the front lines. There they will drink coffee and talk animatedly about the absurd nature of life and man's lonely isolation in the universe. They will be accompanied by a number of heartbreakingly beautiful girlfriends who will further spread dismay by sticking their tongues in the philosophers' ears every five minutes and looking remote and unattainable to everyone else.
Their leader, Colonel Marc-Ange Belmondo, spoke yesterday of his confidence in the success of their mission. Sorbonne graduate Belmondo, a very intense and unshaven young man in a black pullover, gesticulated wildly and said, "The Taliban are caught in a logical fallacy of the most ridiculous. There is no God and I can prove it. Take your tongue out of my ear, Juliette, I am talking." Marc-Ange plans to deliver an impassioned thesis on man's nauseating freedom of action with special reference to the work of Foucault and the films of Alfred Hitchcock. However, humanitarian agencies have been quick to condemn the operation as inhumane, pointing out that the effects of passive smoking from the Frenchmen's endless Gitanes could wreak a terrible toll on civilians in the area. Speculation was mounting last night that Britain may also contribute to the effort by dropping Professor Stephen Hawking into Afghanistan to propagate his non-deistic theory of the creation of the universe. Other tactics to demonstrate the non-existence of God will include the dropping of leaflets pointing out the fact that Michael Jackson has a new album out and Dick Cheney has not died yet. This is only one of several Psy-Ops operations mounted by the Allies.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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actually, one of the attributes of science is the questioning of authority, or rather, that the only authority is nature... the empirical test of an idea is the ultimate arbiter.
Since a belief, in the sense used in this thread, is something that is not testable by the empirical methodology of science, the truth of the belief can be neither confirmed nor refuted by scientific method. It is quite irrelevant to the establishment of scientific "truth," at best a provisional concept.
Some of my science friends claim otherwise but to do so gets you tied up into knots, so I just avoid it... absolute truth in science probably cannot be demonstrated.
However, you can predict, measure and test, and the predictions can be very very good, amazingly good. When you do that, you find your need for "absolute truth" to be a waning feeling, you're happy to be able to predict the outcome of your experiments or anticipate observations...
So I don't really consider the authority of Newton or Einstein or any of them as being relevant to the discussion of religion, basically it is their opinion, unsubstantiated with respect to a scientific consideration, and probably just as good or bad as anyone of ours... I remember Russ' resaying of the fact that opinions are just one of the things everyone has... basic biologic function eventually results in all of us producing the same output...
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WBraun
climber
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The atheist has no knowledge .....
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Ellipses make vague nonsense sound deep...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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well it depends, Werner, on what it is that you have knowledge about. The status of one's religious beliefs does not prevent one from knowing something very well.
You have a specific "something" in mind, so your statement can be both true and false, as it depends on just what that "something" is.
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Bad Climber
climber
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For virtually everyone alive, the Gods of ancient Greece never existed. In fact, for most people most gods don't exist. Atheists simply take this logical, reasonable line of thinking (and experience, mind you) to its logical conclusion: We believe in one god less than the rest of you!
The ONLY way I can believe in God is to use the term as a metaphor for the wonder of creation that surrounds us, i.e. a piss poor term for mysteries and climbs and hot women and good beer and everything else--including, unfortunately, war, hate, disease and death. So, in any conventional sense, I'm an atheist. Proud of it, too!
Bad Climber, fo' shiz.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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These arguments and conversations go on and on and so far as I can tell, have been circling around humanity since the first cavemen squatted around the first campfire. The main problem is that folks are using the wrong instrument - the analytical mind. It never or at any rate rarely occurs to folks that there is another mode that is perfectly suited for the Big Imponderables.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Ed
Sorry for that. My post wasn't aimed at you personally and was just a blanket statement for the atheist class.
Fuel for the fire ..... heh heh heh.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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not taken personally Werner... don't worry, just engaging in Largo's campfire talk, as I am a fully analytic ape..
...I do recognize John's criticism of the "analytical" method, however, I am fully prepared to accept that the mind has many very interesting capabilities. I would posit (have posited in other posts) that the domain of the "mind" exceeds that of physical reality, that we can use the "mind" to "think" of things that cannot exist in the world.
This is not paradoxical, really... that the thing that "thinks" is not the same thing as the "thoughts."
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Paulina
Trad climber
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I appreciate atheism. I am atheist.
It's not because I possess some sort of knowledge that others don't see. It's because, like GO, I'm able to derive a conclusion, with high probability, based on lack of evidence. Which also means that if tomorrow the sky opens and I see a bearded man (or a hairless woman, or a giant spaghetti monster), I'd be quite capable of saying: I must have been wrong. But of course, the chance of that happening is vanishingly small, so I will round it to zero.
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Paulina
Trad climber
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Thanks khanom, nice to see you back on ST!
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2009 - 09:59pm PT
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Yep, Dr. F.
But you can't say that about religious types.
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jstan
climber
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“Author:
jstan
climber
From:
As I understand it, at this time, there is no empirical data regarding the existence of the Higgs. So it, just like God, is a theory.
Now we hope CERN will be able to produce data regarding the Higgs.
To my knowledge no one has suggested a way to get data or an experiment to indicate whether a God exists.
So is it not fair to say the existence of a God falls somewhere short of being a theory.
It might fairly be termed a supposition.
Re: Atheism Appreciation Thread Mar 9, 2009, 01:32pm PT
Author:
GDavis
Trad climber
From:
Very bold to say that nothing exists unless your mind can grasp it.”
In my post I discussed the nature and the extent of the data regarding two different propositions. Nowhere did I opine as to whether either God or the Higgs exist. Discussions regarding the data are generally a good path when one wishes to solve or even merely illuminate important questions.
By implying that I have advanced the proposition that I believe one of those two in fact does not exist, Mr. Davis has attempted to change the discussion. Why?
It could be a rhetorical device intended to end rational discussion.
It could be he fears discussions that may resolve or illuminate the question.
It could be he enjoys the adrenalin rush he obtains from aggressive behavior.
Now I will argue very pointedly.
If we had been allowed to have this discussion of the data, one logical result could be that one party would say, “God does not even need to exist in order to allow me to feel better as I go through life.”
Rationally the other party would say, “I am happy for you. Not for the world would I limit your freedoms.”
The discussion of God has, for these parties at least, been successfully resolved to the satisfaction of both. Not an insubstantial result.
But for at least the last 2000 years no discussions of God have been resolved in this manner. It always comes down to Mr. Davis’s “existence” question. With the result that innumerable people, guilty of no damage to others, have been tortured, and have even been burned at the stake for not believing in God or other associated ills. Why?
One possible reason is that forcing others to limit their freedom of thought gives one secular power over them, as does burning them at the stake or not allowing certain groups to have all the rights and privileges accorded to others. I would not salute this hypothesis IN THE PRESENT CASE if it were not for the data we have from the past few years.
Supporters of the last administration’s actions which limit the freedoms of certain groups are now raising the false issue of the existence of God and at the same time opposing all efforts by people not members of their own group to solve some very serious problems. What is at issue is who shall have secular power.
This is a power struggle pure and simple.
Those without power are now threatened because they assume others will be as unprincipled as they have been.
It is perhaps the greatest damage we can do to any God who might exist, to carry on a struggle for simple domination – in their name.
I have no evidence there is actually a physical place called Hell. If no such place exists, in the end, I suspect a lot of people presently on earth will be spared a surprise, a very painful surprise.
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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This religious thread has offered a variety of comments by some very thoughtful and intelligent people.
I have read and followed this thread with interest and enjoyment. Religious discussions around this ole’ campfire provides some very entertaining humor. After all, what could be funnier than God?
However, I do have two serious questions.
First, if there is a loving, all powerful God, why is there so much suffering in this world?
Seriously, if you or your religion can answer this question, please let me know as soon as possible.
And second, whether there is a God or not, isn’t it best to use our time here on earth to enjoy ours lives as much as we can and to help as many as we can enjoy their lives?
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Phil
Do you have children? Have your children made no mistakes, gotten into no trouble, and lived a life without sin? With the fall of Man comes Man's opportunity - we ALL have fallen short, well everyone except for J man (but every parent has a favorite). We chose to live for our lives on Earth and not for Heaven, so we have no place there. By living a life where we accept that fact, and accept that Jesus was the price paid for our choices (and choice to come, for that matter) we get a free ride. Pretty easy stuff, nowhere does it say you have to go to church every week and stay abstenant, stay sober and refrain from saying goddamnit motherf*#ker. But just like your children don't need to be perfect to earn your love, you want them to be a beacon in a world thats pretty crappy.
Sorry, I know a lot of you got spoon fed all this, and to an extent, I can understand why. A lot of people I know who are atheists have a lot of spite and distrust of religions. I've been to mass one time. Man, I can see why! That was BORING! sorry catholics :D
My personal reason is that I happened to have been hooked up with a very progressive, very positive, friendly and fun environment from when I was very young. The people that influenced me most, outside my family, were youth group counselors and high school pastors, who took groups of kids out snowboarding or, yes, rock climbing, on their own time, just to have fun. We were already involved in the church, they weren't trying to hook kids off the street or anything, just because they liked being around us. I grew up very poor as well, and when our water heater would break, or a car would break down, the rest of the families in the church would drive a half an hour to pick me and my sister up for school or let us stay at their place while their dad fixed our leaky roof.
Maybe it was the community. Climbers already have one, and maybe its tough finding room for both. Still, I wouldn't trade the freindships and the brothers and sisters I have made at church for anything, no mountain or ascent or any other worldly thing.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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”All Atheists will so fast change their beliefs, if anything, EVER changed, that gave any proof that they were wrong.”
“Thats all we want, just something”
Who are we that God should stoop down and prove himself to us?
Humans disregarded and forgot God’s signs in antiquity, rejected the Christ, decline to accept the lessons of history and refuse to see God in the miracles of Creation.
Are you sure “just something” is what you want?..... or perhaps a mandate or law requiring God to come down every generation or two, perform miracles to our satisfaction and remind us again?
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Ed wrote: "...I do recognize John's criticism of the "analytical" method, however, I am fully prepared to accept that the mind has many very interesting capabilities. I would posit (have posited in other posts) that the domain of the "mind" exceeds that of physical reality, that we can use the "mind" to "think" of things that cannot exist in the world."
Using the "mind" to "think" will always lead you to the domain of "things," and for the lack of said divine "thing," into into atheism/materialism, which demands God be a tangible, quantifiable "thing" lest God is not "real," or is merely an "idea" (which is also a thing - note the difficulty of the analytical mind to fathom no-thing, which simply registers as giberish to the discursive mind).
In my experience, "God" (and I use this word provisionally) exists at the other end of the spectrum, in the "no-thing" emptiness espoused in every wisdom tradition from Sufism to Zen.
So long as you seek a God-thing, you will come up lacking - of that we may be sure.
JL
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
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"Who are we that God should stoop down and prove himself to us? "
So we are to assume there is a God just because we somehow figure that he doesn't want to prove himself to us,and that is why we don't see him?
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