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WBraun
climber
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Feb 19, 2009 - 11:10am PT
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jlp
But you're the only one that knows, of course.
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mdavid
Big Wall climber
CA, CO, TX
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Feb 19, 2009 - 11:16am PT
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this video is a good example of why small internet videos and news items cannot convey a story accurately, context and evaluating the entirety of the situation is impossible.
I feel bad for all involved, rip
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Feb 19, 2009 - 11:16am PT
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Werner - we just saw the same video, unless you know more. That's my take. I respect your take and basically agree with it - except I think they were all idiots who didn't belong there.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 19, 2009 - 11:38am PT
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So a bunch of climbers haul ass up a big mountain in terrible conditions to try and help their fellow mankind and all you have is "they were all idiots who didn't belong there".
Easy to say sitting in your nice warm house .......
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Feb 19, 2009 - 11:42am PT
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They could have done everything right and he still could have died. Condolences to the rescuers. Doing what they could was better than doing nothing at all.
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darod
Big Wall climber
South Side Billburg
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Feb 19, 2009 - 11:48am PT
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I've been reading a lot in the last few days, both in Argentine and Chilean climbing forums like this one here at the taco. The most illuminating read was in an argentine site that gave a very detailed account of the rescue effort. Unfortunately I don't have the time to translate the whole thing but I can pass along some of my key learnings from this report.
First of all, only people familiar with Aconcagua and the Andes can attest to the conditions of this region. The wind and cold temperatures of those days and the stormy weather in general had a lot to do with what could be done to help those trapped at 6700mts (later reported at 400 meters below the summit toward the Polish glacier), the guide and his 3 remaining clients. One had fell to her death the first night after reaching the top. A fifth Italian client turned back before even attempting the summit because of altitude sickness.
That summit day the weather had been not ideal, and the reports weren't very optimistic. A chilean climber that reach the top that same day with a couple of polish climbers, reported the guided group was climbing at a very slow pace, too slow perhaps to make it to and back safely before nightfall. As they were descending from the top, the guide asked them to wait for him and his client so they could descend together, to which they said "no" because they thought it was already too late to be attempting the top and they would have to wait too long for them and of course they feared for their own lives/safety at that point. The guided group would make it to the top at least an hour after that exchange. Once they reached the summit, they started their descent almost immediately pushed by the storm that closed almost all visibility. If you're familiar with this route (not technical) you could "perhaps" make it back safely with those conditions and at that time (almost 5pm), but this guide had been there once or twice before and the believe is that he didn't really have the route "wired". It should be also mentioned that he didn't registered his group as a guided group, but he registered himself as just another member of his expedition, which is sort of considered illegal, in other words, he was guiding "under the table". In any case, once they started descending they lost their way and headed over the steeper and more technical Polish glacier route, a site of many accidents in this mountain. In the hours that followed, one of his clients fell to her death; with the storm at full force now he radioed for help and a massive rescue effort got started.
For reasons too long for me to explain and translate here, 2 days went by before "help" would reach the group, who was stranded just at the edge of a giant cliff off toward the Polish glacier. The guide pretty much kept his clients alive long enough to wait for said help to arrived. But he was too weak and in spite of much effort at that altitude to get him (and the other 3 Italian clients) back to the the top and toward the easier (and only practicable) normal route, he died a couple hundred meters below the top.
We can talk all day about the rights and wrongs that happened during this rescue, it's easy after all from behind our keyboards, but to me at least what gives me the most to think about is the motivation of a paid guide to push forward, at a late hour, with very slow-moving clients and give them what they hired him for, the summit.
Very sad indeed. My condolences to the families and friends affected by this tragedy. Everest '96 anyone?
darod.
edit: great link from an argentine site with lots of information of this rescue:
http://www.alborde.com.ar/montania1/montanismo136.html
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Feb 19, 2009 - 11:48am PT
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"Werner doesn't really know anything, he just spouts a bunch of bullsh'it here masquerading as knowledge."
Bingo. This is Supertopo, after all. Thread after thread dedicated to the proposition that experience, professionalism, and expertise are completely empty concepts.
What you need is ideological puirity. From there, you can work out to the proper judgment on any situation or problem, no matter how gross your incompetence or vast your ignorance.
The key question we've overlooked so far is, were those rescuers right-wingers or left-wingers? Once we have that answer, we'll have all the others.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Feb 19, 2009 - 12:15pm PT
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I see this a little differently actually somewhat heroically. Yes he died. He was a mountain guide and he died. Those ARE the chances you take. He did! He died.
But he did not die in a drive by shooting or a drunk driving accident or from the infirmities of advanced age. He died doing what he surely loved to do. And he died fighting to the end climbing up. As a guide he must of long ago come to grips with his own mortality. I can't imagine he wanted to die but what an apropos way for a climber to go.
Further, he didn't die alone. Several other folks put aside their own objectives and put them selves out at great risk and in horrendous conditions to do what ever they could to help. And they no doubt did it, as many of us would also do facing like circumstances, on the spur of a moment with what they had at hand. They were there as brothers and friends, and a link to humanity at one souls passing.
Cut them some slack and understand this will emotionally scar them forever. They tried the best they could and the comfy couch crowd wants to blame them or accuse them of incompetence. It is obvious from the video that it was all but hopeless. You can hear more than the camera man crying at the end.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2009 - 12:16pm PT
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enjoimx
"To the OP
How is this "unacceptable" as you say?
Rescue is a privelage, and rescue is not an exact science. While there may be "codes" that you speak of, certain situations may dictate an alteration from these codes, and not everyone can be saved.
Yes, climbing is risky. Do it at your own risk. "
I understand that climbing comes with risk and doing SAR is a privilege not an obsolete right but dragging a fellow climber with a rope like a goat is not the way you treat a dying climber.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 19, 2009 - 12:44pm PT
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Majid- that's what I've been trying to get at. What were they supposed to do?
O2 and warmth/shelter would be start. But carrying enough 02 into the mountains to last for the amount of time needed to run a rescue is difficult.
We run out all the time on Mt. Whitney, fortunately most of the people who get rescued on Whitney, don't actually need a rescue so they are stable patients.
When something really bad goes down, you hope for some sort of badass military chopper to save your bacon.
I have no idea how this works on Aconcaugua.
What were the injuries to the guide in this case? Internal bleeding? head injury?
Everyone says that rescue up there is impossible- is this true, or is it that we haven't yet worked out how to do these things yet?
I don't know, I'm asking
There's really difficult, that I'm sure is true, but not possible or not worth the risk/effort?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Feb 19, 2009 - 12:50pm PT
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So what would Majid do?
Look at it this way. Say that the dying guy and all his gear weighed 200 pounds. And for the sake of argument say that the sixth rescuer put down the camera and helped.
That would add 35 pounds to each rescuer. Now just for a moment forget the atrocious conditions and imminent hazards and ask your self - would you be willing to dump an extra 35 pounds on what you are already lugging in your pack and at that altitude? Would you be physically strong enough and technically capable enough to accomplish that Herculean effort even in ideal conditions?
At that altitude and in those conditions if you can't help yourself even a little your chances of survival are less than zero.
The Hubris of Everest 96 is a good parallel given the poor decision to push on too late. And for spurious commercial considerations. Remember two things before flinging condemnations.
1: The dead guide had already consumed huge amounts of energy reserves keeping the surviving clients alive for what sounds like two days of brutal conditions.
2: The rescuers did in fact rescue those clients before the guide.
I can only imagine that once the guide knew his clients were saved and he was no longer responsible he let go and caved in. His will to survive already all but consumed.
For me the sadness is in the salacious need of arm chair voyeurs to revel in tragedy and excel in second guessing.
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ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 19, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
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I really feel awful for this man's family and friends .. and for the rescuers ..
.. I hope that the courts absolve them of any wrong doing ..
If you take into account the weather, the length of the rescue (24 hrs), the fact that they had succeeded in rescuing 3 people already -- then its clear that they were doing their best.
The video clearly shows that everyone is exhausted, and that there may not be anything else they can do.
.. -- if thats not good enough reason to absolve them -- well then lets hope that someone recognizes that there is no guarantee of rescue on a mountain like aconcagua ..
.. -- there should be some sort of legal protection for sar folks .. even in places where rescue is very accessible (like el capitan in yosemite) --
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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Feb 19, 2009 - 01:53pm PT
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There is "legal protection in the U.S." it's called the Good Samaritan Law. Though please note that it only applies to people who have basic training with a "CPR/Fist Aid certification" etc."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law
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rescue76
Trad climber
colorado springs
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Feb 19, 2009 - 01:57pm PT
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Wondering why they are trying to move him uphill?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Feb 19, 2009 - 02:02pm PT
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They had to get to the top to access the normal route which was the only conceivable descent.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Feb 19, 2009 - 02:14pm PT
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Wondering why they are trying to move him uphill?
That terrain from the standard route up (or down if you climb the Polish Glacier route) is pretty weird. If you strayed from the Caneleta too far in any direction, it'd be pretty grim. Especially to the east, towards the Polish Glacier side. Its really cliffy on crappy loose rock intermixed with snow/ice patches. Kinda no man's land. Very difficult place to lower someone.
Look how long that body sat at the base of the Polish Glacier for example. Mid 80's until just a year or so ago?
I didn't notice anyone with O2 on the mountain on the Polish side when we were there (bad 97/98 season). Just not that common. And, without a litter up high on the mountain, anyone you'd rally up high to go up for a rescue attempt would be at a huge disadvantage for moving someone who'd been exposed to really harsh elements for a couple days. Especially if they weren't acclimated (most aren't, just not the kind of place to hang out). The weather on that peak is commonly really awful. Wind wind wind...
Pretty tough row to hoe...sad, grim deal.
-Brian in SLC
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rescue76
Trad climber
colorado springs
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Feb 19, 2009 - 02:42pm PT
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Thanks for the explanations.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2009 - 02:56pm PT
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philo
" So what would Majid do? "
I would setup a tent and stick a dex in to the guy's heart and let him rest in peace in comfort and once he is gone, I pack up and return to BC. I would not drag him like a cow on ice.
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
the outer bitterroots
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Feb 19, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
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tom woods,
you raise a question of interest to at least this dog.
>“What were the injuries to the guide in this case? Internal bleeding? head injury”
two good guesses, tom – as one thing i read suggested that this guy got hit by an avi.
but as i know (and am confident you know) -- it takes rather little to cripple you at such altitudes and in such bad weather and night cold. injuries that are trivial (however miserable) at your local crag quick becomes a death sentence in that kind of cold at that altitude.
fwiw: when i was there i never saw O2, anywhere. and from what i’ve read before and since, it has never been used there such. O's are more a part of the the everest ceo circus.
perhaps the local SAR group carries it -– fortunately when i was there i was never in a position to find out.
and this from stzzo’s report:
> 1:35 - Cameraman: “We’ve made ten meters more […] he
> doesn’t want to go anymore.”
the last part of that is typical of hypothermia, no? i’ve been close to that, a couple of times, way up high and way too dehydrated and way too cold.
i remeber the worst such time, i’d suddenly drop and whine “just let me rest a few minutes…” fortunately my then partner -- who was a stud -- said ‘get up, you whining aszhole –- if either of us stop here we are toast.”
oh bless his mighty heart. for he surely saved this small dog’s droopy butt. not much of a butt, but rather dear to me.
^,,^
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couchmaster
climber
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Feb 19, 2009 - 03:32pm PT
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All this armchair quarterbacking is worthless, none of you were there, none of you were totally spent and gassed, barely able to move yourself....had the rescuers made it up there in a single long push? I doubt they were moseying up with porters and slowly acclimatizing.
..screw it, dudes dead, it's on him 100%, not on those trying to save his ass, they did their best, they went and took a shot and failed just like he did. Werner's the only guy I know who regularly does this, so I exclude him in my comments and any others who have rescued others. It's never as easy, safe or as fast as you might think while perched inside of your very warm and comfortable house being critical of those who had stepped into the arena and put their own lives on the line. They at least took a shot.
Have you gone up high when the Search and Rescue folks have told the widow "sorry, the weather is just too bad right now" so she has called me at 9pm and you have called as many other lost souls as you could. You go because you are a climber. You go because it is what you must do. You go hoping to save a lost soul. You go hoping that you can pull off a miracle. You go, but the die had been rolled and cast long before you even rolled out of bed. If it's a 1 in 100 chance you can effect positive change, you go. If it's a 1 in 1000 or add 2 zeros to that you still go. When you step out of your car and can barely stand up straight as the wind is so strong, and within seconds your eyelashes are freezing shut...yet still you go. When you realize you don't have a sleeping bag...you go anyway, accompanied with a silent prayer that all the folks you have called to help will survive themselves this night.
You as#@&%es who are backbiting and second guessing here.
You stayed. You didn't help when it was needed. You slept through that critical 2 am phone call, or you picked it up but replied: "sorry, I have to work in the morning, but good luck:" and hung up. You stayed home nice and warm. Nice and warm. You let others do the heavy lifting and they canceled work because someone had to try. So you lived. You slept under a thick duvet that night, and the next. You watched the news. "Oh, how sad"!
STFU you mother f*#kers! You have no idea.
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