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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jan 29, 2009 - 05:40pm PT
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"I tend to believe that as your brain is dying from lack of oxygen, the adrenalin or endorphins kick in and playback whatever you have BELIEVED all your life to ease the pain of your pending death."
I believe when I die I'll be in a paradise of perfect hand cracks on clean granite with blue skies.. When I get to the top of a climb fat skis will be waiting for me and my buds and we'll ski bottomless powder back down to the base of the cliff, stopping along the way at Swiss Chalets full of family, friends, pets, and top notch consumables.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 29, 2009 - 07:23pm PT
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I believe the same thing except that in my Chalet's there are 72 virgins.
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Redwreck
Social climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jan 29, 2009 - 07:50pm PT
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I don't see any evidence of the existence of a god.
I don't see any evidence of the non-existence of a god.
My hunch is that no such thing exists, but there's really no way of knowing.
So I guess I'm an agnostic with strong atheist tendencies.
Wishy-washy enough for you?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2009 - 07:57pm PT
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When you all were in the womb of your mother you had no evidence that El Cap existed.
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Redwreck
Social climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jan 29, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
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Nor did we have an opinion about unicorns.
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Redwreck
Social climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jan 29, 2009 - 08:11pm PT
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Which isn't to say I wouldn't believe in unicorns if I could, because their existence would please me. Same with a god. I've tried to believe, but I just can't.
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kev
climber
CA
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Jan 29, 2009 - 08:24pm PT
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Awww come on - agnostics are just atheists who are still in the closet.
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Jan 29, 2009 - 08:28pm PT
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Come out, come out, wherever you are!!
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 29, 2009 - 09:23pm PT
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If there are two does that make them diagnostics??
Redwreck: You haven't seen "Legend" have you.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jan 29, 2009 - 09:49pm PT
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Phil G, Late getting on board. Sorry. Only have a couple hours in the evening I can post now.
I and my loved ones have been through severe illnesses, physical accidents, death, business and financial challenges and drowning .....but still loving life :DD
Through the hurt and chaos God the Heavenly Father has always been there for me. BUT, it was DIFFICULT !!!!! Took time, patience, faith, perserverance and living one day at a time til things became clear and all the pieces of the puzzle fell into place.
Books that helped me through the VERY hardest of times....of course the Bible, "Disappointment with God" by Philip Yancey was just AWEsome. Then there's "Have You Felt Like Giving Up
Lately" by David Wilkerson.
Joni Eareckson Tada's books are awesome. She became a fullon quadriplegic at age 17 and just wanted to die.
Finally, my favorite's are all books written by Corrie ten Boom. A Dutch woman that, along with her family, saved many jewish people from Hitlers killers. Some of her family members including her Dad, her sister and herself spent serious time in concentration camps. Corrie made it out alive and loving and knowing an incredible God. Her sister died in the camp.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 29, 2009 - 10:14pm PT
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Lynne I had a friend die of hodgkins lymphoma 13 years ago. He was a big man but after fighting for so long and going through Chemo he was shrunken, pale and very sickly looking. I didn't see or hear from him for about 4mos when he walked into church looking tan and healthy. The bad news was that he had decided to accept his fate and stop taking his medicine. It was one of those false healthy come back things but he wanted to spend his last few months happily with his wife and son instead of the alternative. He wrote a book before he died based on Psalm 23. If you like to read that type of thing I'd be happy to share it.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jan 29, 2009 - 10:23pm PT
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I like the South Park episode where it turns out that Earth was created as a reality TV series for the amusement of galactic viewers.
Explains a lot.
Beats believing in some berobed bearded 2000 year old white guy from Ethiopia.
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luggi
Trad climber
atwater california
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Jan 29, 2009 - 10:53pm PT
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Ok I tied really hard not to post on this thread in a climbing forum...talking and acting like we are all siting around the Thanksgiving table...,but here it goes...at least just a little. For those that think we all rose our of the swamps like animals or something...without getting too deep..why can't we all climb 5.14's all day if we all all the same. When something bad happens to someone...we curse God like it is his fault. But, if there is truly a plan..we can't we ever see beyond the hurt that maybe something very good is about to happen to us. As humans we have to question everything..I have to see it and touch it. When parents tell us not to do something and we do it anyway are we not punished for not listening. When something happens to us that is unexpected we might call it "luck" or "coincidence"...is it. How can someone be sure of this so called luck. What is luck or bad luck...can you taste it, smell it, touch it nope...it is a feeling of a result. At least with faith you have something that your body needs to hold on too to survive in the crap that we are dealing with on this earth. When your are climbing and you take a whipper..what do you think..geez I am dam lucky everything held...I prefer to think that someone was looking out for me because I have more work to do somewhere and somehow.
Why is it when people are near death they say I have been a good person. If there was not higher power, what difference would it make if you were a good person or bad. Maybe, there is something in side of them calling them to come home? It is a scary place not every knowing what is the outcome.
The old testament in the Bible is filled with a parent punishing children that would not listen. God and his people. Sad yes..the new Testament is really a love story if you could look at it that way. That someone would allow part of them to die so others could live. Realizing that what was created will never be perfect, therefore, God will allow part of himself to stand in there place so they will have ever lasting life. I know I will be blasted...I could go on. I would suggest a book for those that are at least curious...Lee Stroble...The Case for Christ. A respected reporter and an Atheist...I believe, set out to prove that Christ never existed. A must read and I will not give the ending.
The Bible is the oldest book and the most published book in the history of the world. One must ask "why is that" the the next question might be..."what if it is true"
Please I was writing like I was speaking so grammar is out the window.
One last comment..can't help it now..for those that think Christians are just some bible thumping goodie two shoes...one point I will make. I know several veterns..several tours, special forces. Yes belive in God. In fact Dave Eubank..started Free Burma Rangers.org. Won't find his name in the site. He is a hunted man inside Burma. However, has been and spoken to the President. He takes his special forces training as a missionary inside Burma to save the internally displaced people or the Karin people from being slaughtered by the Burmese Army. So I guess I could say that some Christians could really open a big can of Whop ass if they wanted to. I digress...
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jan 29, 2009 - 11:16pm PT
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Okay Luggi - I'll play and take religion for 100 Alex.
First question - why is that God only seems to come into play when FEAR is at hand?
You know - the whole "no atheists in foxholes" thing.
I grew up with Reader's Digest and Southern Baptists so I have a HUGE background in "God's will", "God saved me", "pray for dear old whoever".
Bullsh#t.
It's all based on the fear of "what if".
What if there's a god, what if I didn't pray enough, what if I burn in hell, what if I didn't toss a buck into the collection plate?
Simply put - the primal fear of the unknown.
What if the lion eats me, what if I fall off this limb, what if the dragon eats the sun?
FEAR!
I got news for you from the front line of death - when the shadow comes for your carbon based talking monkey azz - it ain't bright lights and singing angels that show up - it's shadows of nothing that come to collect the bill.
I have seen death up close and personal - hells bells - I even once upon a time had it seriously come after my azz.
You want to know who shows up for the soon-to-be-deceased?
NO ONE!
What comes for you are the shadows in the room.
They rise and coalesce into a fog of liquid darkness and sweep around you like smoke.
And in this moment of terror you call out for god.
And the fog of death shudders in muted laughter at your ignorance.
Silly rabbit.
God is for kids.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jan 29, 2009 - 11:28pm PT
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Why fear death? It is a door. Perhaps you fear what is on the other side of the door... Myself, I don't want to die, but I'm not afraid of it. It is another grand adventure, another cool drink of water, more friends and old friends. But death is generally like a solo climb, you have to go it alone and I admit that does make me nervous just like roping up with a Silent partner at the base of Mescalito would.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jan 29, 2009 - 11:34pm PT
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I don't fear death.
I abhor it.
Twice in my life I have had the dubious privilege to be allowed to cross the great divide.
Once at age 8, once at age 28.
Nothing was there.
That made me mad.
It seemed such a waste of potential.
I don't think nature cares is all.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2009 - 11:36pm PT
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"Perhaps" means you don't know.
Since you don't know it's so easy to say anything ....
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 29, 2009 - 11:42pm PT
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I'm not going to answer your questions ricky d because I'm not an evangelist and if I were I'd probably be fired anyway. I just want to say that death, like religion, is a personal experience. I have faced the likely prospect of dying myself as have you. Once, in '92 I even had a surgeon pull the sheet over my head and leave me in the dark with my thoughts. Seems we had differing expereinces. I have also seen my share of the dead and dying. It is MY philosophy that your type of death is based on your manner of death. I am not afraid to die a death I know is noble IMHO. I also follow GOD because I believe and I make a point to praise GOD for my fortunes and have learned the hard way not to ask for help with my tribulations. Meaning you will not hear me crying "why me" or "help me GOD". The most I ever go to is to ask for help for others or to tell GOD that I know my life is ultimately not in my control and his will be done. I don't personally believe the majority of people out there only cry for GOD when in need though there are many. My limited experience with the dying is that they tend to dwell on regrets too often. Mostly they wish to be with someone they love rather than cry out for GOD.
Edit: not trying to sound like I'm bragging about nearly dying. I was afraid. I fought with everything I had and forced myself from whithin to pull that sheet off of my head. I don't know if it was claustraphobia or what but I was terrified. I wasn't ready to die.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2009 - 11:44pm PT
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They are afraid. You just wait .....
Summum bonum
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luggi
Trad climber
atwater california
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Jan 29, 2009 - 11:45pm PT
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Ricky..I will play too...you bring Religion into the mix.... I agree. Religion is a mess.the Bible does not call out not one Religion...no where. I don't believe anywhere in the Bible The Crusades were called for and yet they were man made. It is the religion that makes us feel guilty if we don't dress right, give the right amount in the plate and I could go on. I would hope that would not, even though it know it does, speaking from experience, would stop people from have a relationship with God. Nothing prevents anyone from doing that. The reason fear and God are co-mingled is most likely in my opinion is because we come to a point in time when we no longer can do it by our selves and we need help. What are some of the first words out of peoples mouths when they survived a tragic accident. Thank God I am alive. People as a population are a very self sufficient thinking group are we not.
Anna..I too was raised Greek Orthodox...no more..
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