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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jan 21, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
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I am laughing robustly.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jan 22, 2009 - 10:56am PT
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The problem with gittmo is that almost none of the prisoners have been convicted of anything. The critera for ending up there were never well-defined. If you pissed off the wrong warlord, they just might sell you to the US as a "terrorist enemy combatant" regardless of whether you did anything at all other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Once you're there, there's no actual impartial trial process (and the tribunal process is quite clearly a stacked deck sham.)
Part of what makes the Us the wonderful country it is is the whole presumption of innocence until proven guilty thing.
This "prove to me that the folks there didn't do anything" is a lot of BS. Anyone pushing that line has a fundamental misunderstanding of what the USA is supposed to be all about.
And yes, there are some nasty people there who did nasty things, no doubt. The problem is that the process is so bogus, it's impossible to tell which ones really did something deserving of a legal punishment, and which ones are just innocents or those guilt of very minor infractions.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 22, 2009 - 11:20am PT
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READ the accounts of those who got out of GITMO(I said it, I mean I wrote it, Dingus!) to see just what sorts of crimes they were picked up over.
For many of them, it amounted to no more than someone like me saying "Ya know, if I had the chance to get Cheney, damned straight I would! And I know how to find out how to make a bomb, ya know!!!!" or "My cousin is well-connected, and if he wanted to take out Cheney, it would be only a matter of when - not if."
KIDS say this kind of crap all the time. Adults too!
What sort of punishment should a kid get for spouting off like that? Should they be abducted? Put on a plane and flown to another country; one where "rules don't apply?" Beaten? Made to stand in stress positions for six hours, day after day? Blow up the house their family lives in? Electrocuted???? Had dogs sicced on them? Made to be naked in a cold room for days on end? Forced to listen to ranting and railing HyenaMen screaming in their faces, spittle spraying, threatening them with rape?
These are the sorts of things that people in Gunatanamo were subject to, and they were subject to these things for bullshit reasons like saying "I know how to make a bomb." HOW MANY guys here, at 15, 16, 17 years of age didn't spray this sort of BS?(And for those of you who proudly say "Not ME!" look a little deeper in the closet? Sure their ain't nothing in their you would really be uncomfortable about were it to be brought to the light of day???).
I bet, as US citizens, we have a higher chance of being mugged than being attacked by a "terrorist." Probably more women are raped - daily - in the US than are attacked by a middle eastern terrorist.
Should those people who scowl at you and look like they might mug you get thrown in a pit and tortured? How about men who make nasty, hateful, comments against women? I mean, after all.... we have to protect ourselves!
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 22, 2009 - 11:28am PT
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Good post Happiegirl.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 22, 2009 - 11:34am PT
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Me too Riley.
Do however remember that the talk is about closing the prison camp only.
There is no expressed intent to close our military base on Cuban soil.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 22, 2009 - 11:38am PT
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So where's Oboma going to send these people?
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 22, 2009 - 11:41am PT
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I don't think Obama knows where he's going to send these idiots.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 22, 2009 - 11:42am PT
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He's going to send them to DC. They will become dishwashers for the govt. cafeterias there until they move up to busboys.
The USA is an equal opportunity employer.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 22, 2009 - 11:43am PT
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Hey Chaz if you want to keep all the "idiots" together we could send them to your house.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 22, 2009 - 12:00pm PT
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Send these fools to my place, Philo, and I'll put them to work picking avocados.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 22, 2009 - 01:23pm PT
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Lois - I hope you don't take this too hard....but reading your post there, I couldn't help but imagining hearing it in the voice of Joe the Plumber, "reporting live from...."
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 22, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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Hey I thought we settled this and they would all be going to Chaz's to pick avocados then off to Amway sales training.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 22, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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Can Chaz have them make fresh salsa too?
Mmmmmmm...fresh salsa...avocadoes...warm tortilla chips: best stuff in the world.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 22, 2009 - 01:30pm PT
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"If he is going to release some of them, then these persons will need to have trials or hearings wherein they can establish their innocence."
Actually, it's supposed to be the other way around.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 22, 2009 - 01:37pm PT
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Well lois many of us have to wonder that absent a particular point you are still free to dispute substance.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 22, 2009 - 01:48pm PT
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Actually, a lot of them don't need to have trials because a lot of them, frankly, haven't done anything or don't really have much evidence to bring a prosecution. Obama plans to review each one and then decide: that sounds like a smart approach.
There have been several articles published the last few years that examoned this.
And again: you downplay the importance of symbolism.
"If even one of these putatively innocent persons so released can be linked in any way with a future terroristic activity - then Bush comes out smelling like roses and Obama would look like a grand chump. "
Lois, Bush botched this whole thing badly. Some folks who are likely bad guys will probably be released.
Why?
Because evidence obtained through torture won't be admitted. All the folks clamoring for torture the past few years always overlooked that.
That screw-up rests with Bush.
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Jan 22, 2009 - 01:57pm PT
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The important thing is not where these people are held, the important thing is that Obama is reversing Bush's lawless approach to dealing with them. Guantanamo is just a symbol.
Now the future of these people will be played out in the courts under the rule of law, with some degree of transparency. This is how things are supposed to be done in the United States of America.
Edit: Our conservative packed supreme court has already repudiated Bush's lawless approach. It's not just liberals that are disgusted by Guantanamo.
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Chaz
Trad climber
Boss Angeles
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Jan 22, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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Bill,
What legal authority does Obama have for holding these people?
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Jan 22, 2009 - 02:45pm PT
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Actually, I think Werner nailed it. Give them JOBS! I bet most of these guys were caught doing (insurgents, Al Queda, etc.) what they were doing for the money. As do most people join the US military: for a job and the money. So, get them a job, put some "decent" money in their pockets and take away the incentive to fight the US. It's brilliant!
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Bill
climber
San Francisco
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Jan 22, 2009 - 03:02pm PT
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Chaz, I don't know what authority Obama is claiming. The important thing is that the issue will be resolved by the rule of law.
Torture, kidnapping, kangaroo courts, secret "evidence" - that sh#t is over now. I know that bums out a lot of conservatives - oh well.
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