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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 27, 2008 - 10:35pm PT
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there are plenty of quotes that could be quoted to support any position. If I wanted to make Americans look like bloodthirsty maniacs, I could do so by just doing a search of past posts on Supertopo.
but just to strike a balance
Ben Gurion, (perhaps the most prominent founding father of Israel) "In a letter Chaim Weizmann sent to the Palestine-British high Commissioner while the Peel Commission was convening in 1937, he wrote:
"We Shall spread in the whole country in the course of time ..... this is only an arrangement for the next 25 to 30 years." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 62)
In 1938, Ben-Gurion made it clear of his support for the establishment of a Jewish state on parts of Palestine ONLY as an intermediary stage, he wrote:
"[I am] satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state--we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 107, One Palestine Complete, p. 403)
Ben-Gurion emphasized that the acceptance of the Peel Commission would not imply static borders for the future "Jewish state". In a letter Ben-Gurion sent to his son in 1937, he wrote:
"No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of the Land Of Israel. [A] Jewish state in part [of Palestine] is not an end, but a beginning ..... Our possession is important not only for itself ... through this we increase our power, and every increase in power facilitates getting hold of the country in its entirety. Establishing a [small] state .... will serve as a very potent lever in our historical effort to redeem the whole country." (Righteous Victims, p. 138)"
One day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine, Menachem Begin, the commander of the Irgun and Israel's future Prime Minster between 1977-1983, proclaimed:
"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever." (Iron Wall p. 25)
from
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story695.html
According to Sefer Toldot Ha-Haganah, the official history of the Haganah, it clearly stated how Palestinian villages and population should be dealt with. It stated:
"[Palestinian Arab] villages inside the Jewish state that resist 'should be destroyed .... and their inhabitants expelled beyond the borders of the Jewish state.' Meanwhile, 'Palestinian residents of the urban quarters which dominate access to or egress from towns should be expelled beyond the borders of the Jewish state in the event of their resistance.' " (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 178)
Israel Zangwill, who had visited Palestine in 1897 and came face-to-face with the demographic reality, stated :
"Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having fifty-two souls to the square mile, and not 25% of them Jews ..... [We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan and accustomed for centuries to despise us." (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 7- 10, and Righteous Victims, p. 140)
The actual demographics picture for Palestine in 1914 was: 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews
Peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 10:41pm PT
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Thank You Karl Baba another tremendous post.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 27, 2008 - 10:44pm PT
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No Skip. I do not condone the rocket firing. I just understand that Israel's actions just make matters worse. Hopefully some day you will understand this.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 10:50pm PT
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How many houses, how many deaths Skipt? Post up some facts on all the devastation caused by Palestinian rocket attack. Death Tolls and property values. Be specific Skipt.
How do the numbers stack up Skipt? Who lost more innocent civilians and property?
Or are you content to endlessly regurgitate zionist misinformation to justify an out of all context revengeful mass destruction?
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Dec 27, 2008 - 11:03pm PT
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chris2 - valid comments! There are some things we can agree on.
I think the headlines should read as: Hammas commits suicide
by IDF. (fyi its a play on ..suicide by policeman)
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 27, 2008 - 11:05pm PT
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Exactly what are you endeavoring to say Skipt? Apparently my limited intellect is impeding my ability to make sense of where you are coming from with all the twisting of word and intent you are engaged in.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 12:10am PT
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To get a clear perspective, it IS important to know the death toll on both sides. Particularly telling, since we're worried about innocent people, is the number of children killed on each side.
Question, If our country was invaded and settled by a foreign people, how would you fight back if they somehow had total military superiority of every kind? Put the shoe on the other foot.
Again, think about it. There were less than 60,000 jews in this land about a hundred years ago. How do they go from that to being the dominant rulers of the land while being the innocent victims the whole time?
At least Fatty would sort of admit that that's the ugly way power works, You lose the wars, you lose your lands. Gonna give the west back to the Indians?
Doesn't make it right to keep letting injustices happen. Didn't we kick Saddam out of Kuwait after he invaded successfully?
Peace
Karl
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 28, 2008 - 12:12am PT
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Anybody hear the news about the air strikes today?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 01:34am PT
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That's BS Skip. Of course the death toll matters.
If 6-10 Israelis have been killed during the last year and that's being used to justify cutting off electricity and food to a whole population and then bombing the crap out of them, killing hundreds in just one day, then we have a inappropriate response.
Skip, just accept one principle. that of stepping into the shoes of the other. considering the golden rule. You really expect the Palestinians to be crowded into the open air prison of Gaza with all their borders blockaded and stave themselves while maintaining a polite cease fire?
If the US were to have killed 50 innocent Pakistanis going after the Taliban in Pakistan, would that justify Pakistan nuking us?
"A March 3, 2008 report issued by Amnesty International has revealed the amount of carnage that has occurred as a result of Israel’s air and artillery strikes on Gaza [1]. Over 100 Palestinians have been killed and many were children or innocent bystanders. More than 250 others (mostly civilians) were injured. Israel’s Chief of Staff (e.g. public relations goon) claimed that 90 percent of those were militants, but the UN and sources in Gaza tell a different story. Sources say that half of those killed were unarmed civilians, while Israel bombed civilian neighborhoods and at least two medical facilities—which have already suffered from shortages of supplies and a humanitarian crisis.
Nonetheless, Amnesty also criticized “militant groups” in Gaza for firing homemade rockets at Israel. Amnesty stated:
“It is high time that the leaders of Hamas and the Palestinian Authority (PA) took effective steps to prevent and punish attacks on civilians in Israel,” said Malcolm Smart, “but their failure to do so does not make it legitimate for the Israeli authorities to launch reckless air and artillery strikes which wreak such death and destruction among Palestinian civilians.
“At the same time, the Palestinian armed groups who launch frequent rocket attacks from Gaza into nearby Israeli towns not only show a callous disregard for the lives of Israeli civilians but also expose the Palestinian population in the Gaza Strip to the danger of Israeli attacks.”
While this criticism is seemingly well motivated and I commend them for being concerned about the lives of all those involved, is important to remember the disproportionate amount of violence that Israel has perpetrated against Palestinian civilians. One Israeli civilian in the past several months has died in the attacks, while hundreds of Palestinians have been killed and many more wounded in a relentless barrage of aerial bombardments and periodic incursions. Palestinian territories have endured decades of an illegal and brutal military occupation that has impoverished and humiliated an entire group of people because of their ethnicity. Over the last several decades, Palestinians suffered disproportionately under the occupation, and have been unable to respond to the violence and defend themselves. Palestinian deaths outnumbered Israeli deaths by a factor of over 20 to 1 during the first intifada (1988), and the vast majority of Israeli deaths were combat troops.
Even in the early stages of the last intifada a disproportionate number of innocent Palestinians suffered. An article in the Guardian by Suzanne Goldenberg cited a report given by the Palestinian Red Crescent Society in 2001 stating that 13,296 people—many of whom are children, had been left with some form of permanent disability like loss of sight, paralysis, or severe mental disabilities [2].
In her article, Goldenberg described a “harvest of mutilation” experienced by Palestinian youngsters. Injuries were doled out by bullets from high-powered M-16s on children and teenagers that the world has all but forgotten about. Children like Hussein Na’ezi and Mahmoud Sarhan, both only 16 years old, were shot through the neck while they were running from a tank in their own neighborhood. They sustained spinal cord injuries and neither of them will ever be able to walk, or even lower themselves into a wheel chair. Imagine what the reaction would be if American or European children were not able to walk to school or play in their own back yards because of the fear that they might be killed or permanently disabled by a tank or machine gun fire from an occupying army.
One could arguer that the use of violence on the part of Palestinians is not optimal. Obviously, a building a multi-ethic society free of apartheid would be the best option. However, criticizing the Palestinians for using violence to defend their homeland (as if they were on equal footing with Israel) is counterproductive at this point."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 01:41am PT
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The thing is, we don't get the whole story here in the states. We hear about every Israeli killed but not the Palestinians. This is particularly true about the kids.
"The networks’ coverage of children’s deaths was even more skewed. In the first year of the current uprising, ABC, CBS, and NBC reported Israeli children’s deaths at 13.8, 6.4, and 12.4 times the rate of Palestinian children’s deaths. In 2004 these large differentials were also present, although they decreased in two cases, with deaths of Israeli children covered at rates 9.0, 12.8, and 9.9 times greater than the deaths of Palestinian children by ABC, CBS, and NBC, respectively. Given that in 2004 22 times more Palestinian children were killed than Israeli children, this category holds particular importance. We could find no basis on which to justify this inequality in coverage."
"In the first year of the current uprising, 28 Israeli children and at least 131 Palestinian children were killed.4 (Children are defined by international law as those who are 17 and younger.)
Thus, Palestinian children were killed at a rate 4.7 times greater than Israeli children. 825 of these Palestinian children were killed in the first three-and-a-half months of the conflict, before any Israeli children had been killed."
"Collectively, the networks reported on an average of 46 Israeli children’s deaths – 164% of the Israeli children killed – and 21 Palestinian children’s deaths – 16% of the Palestinian children killed. In other words, the networks reported on Israeli children’s deaths at a rate 10.2 times greater than Palestinian children’s deaths."
From a study reported here
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/net-report.html
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 02:42am PT
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How many of us have laughed at R. Kings plee, " can't we all just get along?" as wishful thinking that just isn't going to happen in the real world.
Why do we seem to forget this when our attention is turned to the middle east? Completely unreasonable for us to want the folks least likely to get along, to do so.
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2008 - 11:27am PT
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Ariel Sharon put it best:"a Palestinian life is not worth the fingernail of an Israeli". Thankfully that war criminal has been in a coma for the past few years. May he rot in hell.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Dec 28, 2008 - 11:43am PT
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Keep it up Israel.
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 28, 2008 - 11:56am PT
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Karl Baba said: The thing is, we don't get the whole story here in the states. We hear about every Israeli killed but not the Palestinians. This is particularly true about the kids.
...and therein lies one of the cruxes of the issue for us all - our press is not as "free" as we would like to think....however, concerning the above discourse that the Israelis kill more so are more at fault...ahhh, not fair. The Palestinians would kill plenty more if they could, and it's heading that direction as they get help, training, and supplies from places like Iran.
This has a simple fix, Israel wants the Palestinian authorities to help stop the missile firings. Yet they do nothing. Nothing at all.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 12:36pm PT
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Skip says
"Let me see, Hammas responsible for thousands upon thousands of dead innocents. Me, zero"
Prove it Skip. You wrote the Thousands upon Thousands but haven't investigated to see if there's any truth to it.
Fatty says we shouldn't consider fairness but that's the comfy talk from the side that's ahead and has superpower support. The tables may turn as the Arab world gets rich on oil while the US chokes on its economy.
Here's my beef Skip. You're obviously not up to date on the conflict in an educated way. You don't know what's really going on with both sides so you think based on the filter you've seen the surface level of new with.
I'd be all about protecting Israel if they had any integrity about what they are doing. The problem is, for decades that they have been paying lip service to peace, they are deliberately been Illegally confiscating and settling Palestinian lands and creating unlivable conditions in Palestinian territories to drive them out so they can settle "The greater Israel"
as long as that goes on, there is no "good" parties to this conflict, only bad. By asking you to put the shoe on the other foot Skip, I'm asking you to ask yourself, if half your town was settled by foreigners with no rightful claim to the land, and they instituted blockades and checkpoints, made you carry Id cards, searched you, kept you from getting work, and treated you like a dog, how would you respond?' Really?
If we are going to take the Israeli Side, I don't have a problem with that as long as we hold them to a standard of fairness and justice. Continuing with settlements in Palestinian land and building the wall on a path that makes Palestinian life unsustainable is not acceptable.
Fatty, you are wrong, if the Palestinians accept the present borders (care to let us know what they are? Where is Hebron? What about settlements within Palestine? Gonna remove them all?) how long before they are provoked or blockaded into more conflict and more confiscation?
It's a little know fact in the US that Israel has always refused to state where there borders should be. They wouldn't do so now either. There is a large powerful group in Israel that refuses to do so with continual expansion in mind.
Israel has serious long term problems. It's a Jewish state with modern demographics but Judaism is basically not a religion that seeks to convert people. That points to shrinking population while the Muslm populations continue to soar. I'm not saying anything is right or wrong in that, just that it pushes Israel to make up new ways to push Arabs out and that it's pushing to confiscate new land that it doesn't really need.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 12:49pm PT
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Skip writes
"I call for Hammas to stop sending thousands of rockets and killing innocent people in the first place which is the true position of what you are trying to achieve"
You're just being one sided Skip. Call for Israel to cease illegal settling. Call for Israel to stop shooting children with snipers while they work their own olive orchards. It's not just Hamas harrassing innocent people, Israel is far from innocent here.
When you talk about fairness in killing, you have it all twisted. I'm saying that both sides kill a small number of innocent people deliberately, and then Israel uses that as an excuse to kill large numbers of guilty and innocent people and punish whole populations.
Got any criminals in your town? What if the government used that as a excuse to bulldoze your house, cut off your food, and kill the neighbor kids?
It's happening!
Peace
Karl
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 01:58pm PT
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Skipper spun;
"Gee Karl, To imply (if not outright demand) nothing be done to protect innocent people until a "Fairness of killing" accounting procedure has been achieved is ridiculous. How far are you willing to carry on with this madness".
Skip never did Karl imply (or as you are wont to say "outright Demand" ) anything of the sort. Neither for that matter did I. We are both just presenting accurate and verifiable information about the comparative levels of death and destruction. And pointing out that it is unfair for Israel to claim self defense as a moral high ground to validate their utterly unreasonable responses. You want to try to say that the Palestinian Resistance is indiscriminately raining Hell fire and massive destruction on innocent Israellis. And this, you say, justifies anything the Israellis want to do in retaliation. This is simply not the truth. No one is trying to "give a pass" to Palestinians. Only point out the truth of their resistance. Largely ineffective and desperately futile. All of these troublesome rocket attacks combined haven't done a whole lot of death and destruction in Israel. Much less in fact than even one unsettler incursion into Palestinian lands particularly during harvest time. And those happen multiple times daily. They just don't get reported in the Western Press. In fact the average daily death toll of Palestinians and destruction of Palestinian lands and property caused by Israeli fundamentalists vastly exceeds The totals of all the rocket attacks coming from the open air internment camp that is Gaza. Does this reality "give a pass" to the horrors of some Palestinian resistance actions? No! Even though occupied peoples have a right to resist guaranteed by international law. But it does cast an appalling light on the outrageous brutality of the ILLEGAL Israelli occupation. So why do you want to "give a pass" to Israel while condemning us because in your imagination we are doing the same for Hamas. We aren't, YOU ARE. WHY? You want to babble on about Israel just being better at warfare. But in comparison what real chance did Native Americans face against the cannon and saber charges of the US cavalry? The Palestinian/Israeli conflict is a parallel situation. What we are observing is the relentless implementation of Zionist Manifest Destiny. Like the Native peoples of The Americas the Palestinians are regarded as subhuman savages who must be removed or eliminated by any and all means. And at all cost, spare no expense, particularly since we the US taxpayers are paying for it. This is NOT a fair fight in which to compare warcraft skills Skipt. Many hundreds of billions of US Taxpayer dollars have been able to guarantee that the playing field stay as unlevel as possible. This is not two equal armies of warriors met on an open level ground. To the victor go the spoils. This truly is a David and Goliath metaphor. Only this time the roles are reversed. The Palestinian Davids armed with their sling shots resisting the brutal and illegal occupation of the Israeli Goliath armed with the latest and greatest weapons of all time. This is the moral equivalent of the French and Polish Underground's resistance to the German War Machine. Though even the mere proximity of the words Israel and Nazi will get plenty of people frothing at the orifices it surprises me that they can not (more likely will not) recognize parallel patterns. There is absolutely no intent on the part of Israeli fundamentalists to allow a two state solution. There is no intent to share any of the land. All the Palestinians must leave or die, in Ben Gurion's own words "as fast as world opinion will allow".
Intent, motive, methods and tactics all parallel. Including the active vilification of the
occupied by the occupier. It doesn't much matter if you say dirty injun or kraut or jap or raghead or jew. Once you get to plugging those blanket labels into the thinking that "the only good one is a dead one" it just becomes another retelling of a bad story. The now considered heroic Poles who resisted the Nazis used many of the same tactics that all underground resistances employ. They were also vilified by the Nazis in the same way the Palestinians have been misrepresented by Israel and the Western Press. When the Nazis took reprisal action for acts of resistance they did exactly what the IDF does now. The Nazis used collective punishment almost as effectively as that which the Palestinians are made to endure.
And yet you don't care do you Skip? You have been endlessly told and thus feel like the Palestinians are the evil aggressors, the "terrorists". Since they have no right they deserve what the get right? You like millions of an earlier generation want to ignore the "rumors" of atrocities that have flittered past your hearing. "The Germans are decent people and honorable warriors there is just no way they could be that inhuman and brutal". Thus we are told to believe that all Jews are innocent victims and all Arabs particularly those dirty Palestinians are evil doers, bad people, terrorist.
So Skip please answer the following question; If you were in the same boat as the American Indians or the Occupied Poles or French or God forbid the Palestinians what would you do?
This is a multiple choice question so pick only one answer.
a: Do nothing. Capitulate.
b: Do their bidding. Collaborate.
c: Resist. By any means possible.
What kind of man are you Skipt?
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 02:07pm PT
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And once again Skip YOU are the only one talking about A Fairness Test.
None of us are supporting the deaths of anyone on either side particularly children.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 28, 2008 - 02:47pm PT
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Daffty ol' boy since you missed it the first time I posted as a response to your feeling like you "shot me down" Here it is again. No BS only truth. As usual you proved nothing.
There you have Skipt insisting that he doesn't have to research any facts because he just "knows" that thousands and thousands of Jews have been killed by Gaza rockets. Which is a compete fantasy. Yet he "knows" it's true. No BS there.
Talk about a "pants load". And yet you think I offer nothing. You say that Islam, the fastest growing religion on earth, is on the brink of extinction. Really? More than a billion people on the verge of extinction? From what cause, and for what reason? Certainly not the rantings of a single artificially empowered and largely ignored Mufti. If the boogie man Grand Mufti was such a big threat why did even Simon Wiesenthal ignore him? Like you he was a propaganda tool. The fact is Judaism is the religion on the decline not Islam. Which is part of why so many of you are running and acting scared. And lying through your teeth. The truth is hard to accept sometimes. Which is why I am not surprised that you and Skip and others try so hard to discredit me. If you can't deny the message destroy the messenger.
The real question is why do you post here Jeff?
And the other question is why don't you guys read my climbing posts and threads?
Well DaftRat, most eminent scholar of one sided history, read the truth and choke on a matza ball.
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story420.html
Aren't Palestinians as responsible as their leader al-Hajj Amin Hussieni who collaborated with the Nazis during WW II?
Post Your Comment (9 comments) eMail to a friend
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למאמר בעברית
Posted on August 2, 2001
Unfortunately, to the Palestinian people this question implies that they should pay the price for the collaboration of a single person with the Nazis! Although there were a minority of Palestinians who collaborated with the Nazis, a whole nation cannot pay the price for the choices of a few. It's not just that the Palestinian people (and most of the Arab countries as well) aided the allies with men and logistical support, they also ignored the call for Jihad, against the Allies, that was declared by al-Hajj Amin in April, 1941 (Righteous Victims, p. 165).
Since the Palestinian people were promised full independence in 1949, and strict limitation on Jewish immigration to Palestine, based on the 1939 White Paper, the Palestinian people had an incentive to help the Allies win the war. It should be noted that several Palestinian brigades were enlisted into the British Army, and the Palestinian resistance to the brutal British occupation almost completely ceased during and after WW II.
In general, the Palestinian people are proud of the fact that they were among the few who did not collaborate openly with Nazis. On the other hand, the peoples and governments of France, Italy, Japan, Romania, Croatia, Chechnya, Bulgaria, Switzerland, ... etc. all collaborated openly with the Nazis. Tragically, many of these peoples and governments happily pointed out their Jewish citizens to the Gestapo. So it's unfair, if not outright criminal, to exploit al-Hajj Amin's conduct in order to eternally condemn the Palestinian people as Nazis, while ignoring the choices made by most European peoples and governments who openly collaborated with the Nazis.
In that regard, it's worth noting that Josef Stalin, the Soviet premier and dictator, forcibly transferred the people of the Caucasus to Siberia as a collective punishment for their collaboration with the Nazis during WWII. However, the same people were allowed to return to their homes in 1958 when the scale of the war crime became known to Khruschev, Stalin's successor in the 1950s. If the people of the Caucasus were allowed to return to their homes under Communist rule, why can't the Palestinian refugees return to their homes under Israeli rule?
IRONICALLY, the shocking truth is that it has been proven that the Jewish Stern gang received funding and arms from the Italian Fascists to resist the British Mandate in Palestine. In fact, the Stern gang's collaboration with the Fascists and Nazis was going on while their Jewish brothers were being persecuted in Nazi concentration camps. It should also be noted that when the Americans, British, and their Arab allies were busy blocking the Desert Fox's (Erwin Rommel) advances in north Africa, the Stern gang's leader Yitzhak Shamir and the Irgun gang's leader Menachem Begin were busy ambushing British soldiers, blowing up the vital Haifa-Cairo railroad supply line, and terrorizing British and Palestinian civilians (Righteous Victims, p. 174). And when Yitzhak Shamir, Israel's future Prime Minister in the 1980s, was asked to explain their collaboration with the Fascists, he replied:
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." (One Palestine Complete , p. 464).
Since these findings have only have only JUST started to surface lately (and are kept smothered in many Jewish communities), we feel it's necessary to directly quote one of the MOST pro-Israel historians, Martin Gilbert, who wrote:
"Avraham Stern who had formed a breakaway 'Irgun in Israel' movement (also known as the Stern Gang), tried to make contact with Fascist Italy in the hope that, if Mussolini were to conquer the Middle East, he would allow a Jewish State to be set up in Palestine. When Mussolini's troops were defeated in North Africa, Stern tried to make contacts with Nazi Germany, hoping to sign a pact with Hitler which would lead to a Jewish State once Hitler had defeated Britain. After two members of the Stern's Gang had killed the Tel Aviv [British] police chief and two of his officers, Stern himself was caught and killed. His followers [chief among them Yitzhak Shamir who led the Stern Gang after Stern's death] continued on their path of terror." (Israel: A History, p. 111-112)
What makes many Palestinians and Arabs EXTREMELY ANGRY is that the memories of the Holocaust are being exploited to paint Palestinians as Nazis. Such dangerous comparison and propaganda tactics are continuously fed to many Israeli school children from inception, especially upon visiting the Holocaust museum at Yad Vashem. It should be emphasized that many life size pictures of al-Hajj Amin standing alongside Hitler are on display at Yad Vashem, just West of Jerusalem not far from DEIR YASSIN. It's hypocritical to hold Palestinians responsible for the "ill fated" choice of al-Hajj Amin, while Israelis and Jews still blind themselves to the choices some of their leaders made during WW II.
Related Links
Zionist Quotes: Bible & Holocaust Exploitation
Ze'ev Jabotinsky being PROUD of his fascist uniform
A scanned copy of the document sent by the Stern Gang asking Nazi Germany for alliance
Pres. George Bush: US should have acted on Auschwitz
Merkel: Germans ashamed over Holocaust
The Untermensch Syndrome: Israel's Moral Decay
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 28, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
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Fatty, if you must bring up WW2, the Israelis collaborated with Mussolini no?
skip wrote
"Karl, you continue to offer up arguments that are foolish.
I will stand by my "thousands upon thousands" of dead innocents at the hand of Hammas. "
You are the one being foolish.
First, do you know the origins of Hamas? Much like Al Queda was founded with US support to foil the Soviets in Afghanistan, Hamas is said to be the stepchild of the Mossad to foil Arafat.
"According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".
Hamas is a creation of Mossad. Mossad is like the Central Intelligence Agency of Israel, for those of you not so well informed.
Mossad allowed Hamas, an extremist political organization, to reinforce their presence in the occupied territories. At the same time, Yasser Arafat’s Fatah party, which was a modern non-violent and secular movement, was repressed and subjugated.
It is ironic that Israel created its most potent and threatening enemy by its own hands."
Hamas was created in 1987
"Hamas officials have stated several times that they are willing to stop attacks on Israeli civilian targets if Israel stops attacking Palestinian civilian targets in return.[122] In May 2003, Abdel Aziz Rantisi has said,
"The Hamas movement is prepared to stop terror against Israeli civilians if Israel stops killing Palestinian civilians ... We have told (Palestinian Authority Prime Minister) Abu Mazen in our meetings that there is an opportunity to stop targeting Israeli civilians if the Israelis stop assassinations and raids and stop brutalizing Palestinian civilians."[123]
Hamas has been responsible for launching suicide attacks against Israeli civilians; the group sees the attacks as the main element of its asymmetric warfare against Israel.
Hamas' first use of suicide bombing occurred on April 16, 1993 when a suicide bomber driving an explosive-laden van detonated between two buses parked at a restaurant. It was Hamas' 19th known attack since 1989 (the others being shootings, kidnappings and knife attacks)"
Above and below From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
"Overall, from November 2000 to April 2004, 377 Israeli citizens and soldiers were killed and 2,076 wounded in 425 attacks by Hamas.[125] The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs maintains a comprehensive list of Hamas attacks"
so Let's see, during the most violent period of Hamas killing, they killed 377 Israeli citizens and Soldiers. (not all innocents if you acknowledge there is a war) That's about as many Palestinian citizens and Soldiers that have been killed in the past few days by Israel. The most deadly day of Hamas killing in history killed 30 Israelis, and, since they didn't start suicide bombing until 1991, they got off to a slow start.
So they couldn't have "Killed" thousands and thousands. Even 'One thousand" may be a stretch.
But you don't care about facts it seems and I wonder if you are even reading these posts. You just believe what you want to believe because you harbor a prejudice against Islam.
Guess what. I do too. I'm friends with Jews, I have had serious Jewish girlfriends, I've lived in Jewish households and worked in a Jewish Business delivering to Yeshiva's and Jewish retreats. I have little in common with the Palestinians.
Still, as a human, it's my duty to call this honestly. Israel has a duty to quit stoking the fire as "world opinion allows" to force these people out
peace
Karl
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