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Ballaroama
Trad climber
so.cal
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May 31, 2005 - 05:20pm PT
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Minerals sounds like such the jackass, who the hell do you think you are Mr.bolt-chop-cop??? Chopping more bolts in the Valley and elsewhere is an activity for a loooooser like Minerals and for those that join him chopping just are looking to get their asses kicked. Piss off Minerals and I hope to see your sorry ass at the crags for some fresh blood on my knuckles, you are the real pussy. Oh yeah, about your lame effort on the Zodiac, how long before all the gear is back in place and the climb is more beat-up than before?? Get a life DUMBASS and how did you appoint yourself the keeper of bolting ethic???? Don't have time for another post angryT but I could care less about Mrs.Minerals and if he is a pushover or what. RBCA are a bunch of idiots with nothing going so making a name for themselves chopping retrobolts?? LAME.
There are so many retobolts if one was to chop most of them you will do nothing but piss people off. Besides the routes mentioned, if Minerals had a sack he would go chop the bolts on Nutcracker that weren't there when Royal did the FA. It is a big list of climbs that have anchors and bolts not placed by the first ascent party, are they all going to be removed??? I don't think so. Minerals doesn't have the turf time in the Valley to know what was there to begin with. What ASCA does is positive, what RBCA does is regressive and just plain stupid. Every wall thats had a repeat has been chicken-bolted. Well Mrs.Law you have a lot of work to do and what a waste of time. Again...get a life dumbass.
AMERICAN CHOPPER=JACKASS
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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May 31, 2005 - 05:55pm PT
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Interesting discussion:
I've asked this question before, but since this thread is [mostly] about what is appropriate to replace/add in the name of safety/convenience:
What should be done with all the old, "ticking timebomb" pins that are out there (if there is no clean placement nearby). Replace with a bolt? Replace with another pin (and another, and another, until there is a clean placement)? Leave the ticking timebomb (and let YOSAR clean up the mess)?
For instance, the last pin on Hoodwinked. If you blow the crux, it is either a short, sport fall into space, or, if the pin blows, it is a back first fall onto a slab. East Butress of Middle has an old pin (around pitch 6 or 7) before a hard (for the climb) friction move. If that pin breaks on somebody, it is going to be a 50+' fall.
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akclimber
Trad climber
Eagle River, AK
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May 31, 2005 - 06:35pm PT
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these hotheads that go around bragging about being choppers just suffer from little-dick syndrome.
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Ballaroama
Trad climber
so.cal
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May 31, 2005 - 06:45pm PT
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Yeah and they also suffer from not enough dick from their ropn' pardner as well.
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2005 - 07:11pm PT
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I know its not evening yet, but I'm taking a break from the grind for a spell.
Looks like the topic has gone way off course again.
I am all for any bolt, anywhere, so long as it was placed by the first party to climb through that section of rock. I am all for any rap route, anywhere, so long as the bolts are not placed on an existing route. The only bolts of the RA route I would even consider chopping are the first set, just before the final slab pitch, and only because they are on the route, and the FA climbed past without placing any bolts there. Sling the tree to rap from? fine! leave nuts, cams and biners to rap from? fine! Place pins from which to rap? Fine! all these choices are gear that is easily removable and does not leave a drilled hole in the rock (I think pins should be avoided when possible, but find them to be of less impact than bolts. Crazy, I know, but its just how I feel).
As for the anchor that began this whole circus (and believe me this has been fun), I only object to its presence because it is on a route that pre-existed (La Cosita, var.).
The inflamatory comments on the very first post I regret: It is unfortunate that sometimes a response must be stung from someone who may not otherwise answer at all. I have encountered this silence before; I have been brushed aside with vague banalities.
Though I pretty much agree with Minerals on ethics, I do not share his love of chopping. It is not something I glory in, but rather I do it with sorrow, weeping for the disrespect that was done to the route in the adding of a bolt. As for those who think I am trying to get attention, I am. I am trying to draw attention to what I see as the destruction of my favourie activity. When the ethic changed from all nailing to using passive pro, that was a good thing; a step toward a cleaner ethic. Now there are those who would have the ethic be a grid of bolts and all racks be nothing but draws; that is a step backwards from where we were heading when pins began to fall into disuse. Change? I am all for it, but it must be in the right direction or I will cry out against it.
Minerals,
Sure, I have a 14-month-old daughter. She is the sweetest thing. You might see us wandering about the lodge area some balmy evening.
Back to my fiberglass. Ugh.
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HalHammer
Trad climber
CA
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May 31, 2005 - 10:40pm PT
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Ben Wah Wrote:
"I think that if you rapped off of chossy mank on your FAs then everybody else should too."
Ummmm.... That is one of dumbest statements I've read on these forums...So people rap on a FA and leave shitty ass anchors there because climbers tend to not like leaving half their racks behind. These kind of anchors are marginal at best the 1st day they are used, let alone 20 years later; stuff like this shouldn't be in the same sentence as the word anchor. If you get so excited to hang everything off of time bomb anchors why don't you go Aid solo some A3+ routes without a rope. Any sort of "established" anchor better darn well be able to hold a fall or at least be ready to survive a long future of body weight rappels or it shouldn't be considered an anchor to begin with.
Have you ever heard the statment, "90% of Yosemite Valley climbers climb on only 10% of the routes"? We got a sport here with tons of Donny types out there whether we like it or not, just go do Royal Arches or Cathedral Peak on a weekend if you aren't convinced yet (the controversial cathedral peak bolts are a whole nother subject there). These established routes are just that, established! Yosemite climbs on a whole aren't crowded, even El Cap isn't that bad if you take the top 10 popular routes off the list. Go get on Yosemite Point Buttress or the Arrow Chimney and you'll be lucky to see anyone; leave the hordes to the "established" congo lines. If it takes a few extra bolts to help them not epic that's fine with me. IMO, lately more "average" valley climbers than not refuse to do any moderate approaches or descents unless the route is called Snake Dike.
"The number of bolts on a route should not be added to. Period."
Just because the FA did it one way doesn't mean they did it perfect. Is it not established ethics that as long as it is okay with the FA party, adding an additional bolt or 2 in a few spots is alright I.E. Snake Dike. Rap routes and anchors like RA or the Nose are their own "routes" when put in reasonably; call it the 1st Descent eh?. Out of 7 Royal Arches climbs, anytime I've gone down the gully there is always a "group" eager to follow us down. I've heard plenty of "epic" stories of people getting down the next morning, even from those using the rap route. If people are taking 24 plus hours to do Royal Arches with the rap route do you think they are going to fair well doing the NDG in the dark? I'd bet YOSAR doesn't object ot having that route there.
With modern technology. I'm failing to see your point of anyone having to rap off bunk anchors besides pure cheap budget concerns. The debate of wheter or not to add a bolt where before a piton or tree was established is a different discussion, but should we still replace "established" piton anchors with only pitons in 2005?
Minerals Wrote:
"Sounds like you have just described an indoor climbing gym. Great, just keep that crap inside!!!"
Wow pretty high and mighty refering to all indoor climbers as crap their bud. Did you not realize that the majority of modern climbers, even the "pro's" originated from or at least climb part time indoors? Are you calling most of the climbers that travel to Yosemite every summer crap? Better watch your mouth around here next season. We all got to work together, it seems us evil gym climbers are here to stay, the answer you are looking for is a word called "compromise"...
-Hal
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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In the old days (pre-1980), a lot of routes, especially on Middle C., had really sketchy anchors. I did a stack of first ascents and early repeats on Middle and on the DNB, Freewhellin, Quicksilver, Paradise Lost and many others, and I often feared for my life because the belays were so poor, sometimes just one pin or one 1/4 inch bolt backed up with wires. When there was little traffic, perhaps this was okay. But once the masses hit Yosemite, the only viable tactic was to replace the mank lest folks would start auguring in by the dozens. Same goes for many short free climbs that featured a few old pegs threaded with fifty old slings. There's perhaps no perfect way to do any of this, but it's gotta get done somehow.
JL
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2005 - 12:09am PT
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Hal,
What a perfect segue your post is for what I will now say:
I do not belive, as you and Matt both seem to do, that the FA party holds perpetual rights over routes they establish. Though many people think this, I believe that a better ethic is that of the best ascent. For instance, when Bachar climbed past Jardine's bolts on Crimson Cringe and then chopped them, he established a better ascent of that route: he raised the bar, and it remained where he set it until someone lowered it just a little by replacing one of Ray's bolts on the undercling. Though I cannot say that replacing that bolt was unethical, I think it was kind of lame, since the route had seen countless ascents without it. The FA party IMHO, should be allowed to alter things on a route for a limited period of time; perhaps until the route gets a second ascent or until they come down and say, "There. We just put up a route, it's called so-and-so" But to say that some guy who first climbed a route ten or twenty years ago can say, "let's bolt it every two feet!" and have that be acceptable is preposterous. Once the route has been established and repeated in good style it is no longer up to the FA. Isn't that a better ethic? Sure if the FA rapped off of a rotten chockstone, and that has deteriorated further or fallen out, then by all means find another anchor. But to add bolts when the anchor is in the condition the FA left it? I say No Way
As for people who take 24hrs to do the RA, maybe they should start on something easier. I do not think that any route deserves to be brought down to the level of the cattle who have never bothered to learn to climb properly, just because they might enjoy it. They will enjoy it more if they have built up to it, done many shorter routes first as practise, perhaps even agonised over it, and then finally gone for it when they were reasonably sure they could get up it in decent style. There would be a lot less epics if people waited until something was within their reach before going up on it. Isn't that a better ethic?
As for gyms, I think they are the single worst thing that has happened to our sport, for they have brought hordes of people to the crags who would not be there otherwise. I by no means advocate that anyone should not be allowed to climb-the very thought of that sort of control is repugnant to me-but I do wish that if the gym climbers find they can't quite step up to the plate they would all have the decency to quit climbing.
Newsflash, Gymmies: Nothing personal, you are probably all very nice people, but you are not wanted. If you stay away from the park I promise I will not come to your gyms. Deal?
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WBraun
climber
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Wow!
Are you serious Ben? From reading your posts I believe you are. But ... I’m blown away!
Oh well, it’s your nightmare .... not mine .....
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2005 - 12:45am PT
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Largo,
If sketchy pro was OK then, it should be OK now. Just think, with the current available arsenal of offset nuts and cams; with friends now in quarter sizes, with cams almost microscopic, what was once sketchy might now be bomber. Did the FA place a 1/4" bolt? replace it with one that will hold 5500 pounds! But please don't take away the modern climber's chance to do these sketchy routes in the style that they were put up. Maybe you're looking back down the long years of experience and saying, "Man, we did some dumb things!" I'm looking forward still to many years of dumb things, 'cause I've hardly had a chance to get started on them yet. And when I've done all the dumb things I can stand, I want to take my child to Middle Cathedral and say, "Check it out, little one. Here is where your daddy stepped up to the plate." and "Here is where your daddy couldn't step up to the plate and had to reverse a dicey mantle to get back to his pro and bail." And she'll say, "Gimme that rack of flimmity-flams. I wanna do it too." And with a hard rough hand I'll wipe a tear out of my eye.
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2005 - 12:50am PT
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I'm afraid, Werner, that I am in dead earnest. Part of me wants to say, "Forget the rock. It will be much easier to be nice to everybody." But I cannot do that, for Telling It Like It Is is more important than putting on a thin patina of civility while everything I love the most gets flushed down the toilet of modernization
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WBraun
climber
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Yea I know Ben, not only do you tell it like it is but you also live it too. It just kinda hurts me a little to see you so upset your always in very good spirits normally.
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2005 - 01:14am PT
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Thanks, DMT, for your gracious opinion of my ethics. But you misunderstand just slightly. I do not think it unethical to climb with pro a route that has been freesoloed: I think it unethical to add bolts to a route that has gone without them. The big issue here is bolts; removable gear like cams and nuts leaves very little, if any, trace, so your climbing a route with those will not affect the experience of subsequent parties. It's simple and beautiful. Climb on, have fun, but leave the drill at home unless you're doing FAs (or replacing responsibly).
It is bedtime. Good night
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Ballaroama
Trad climber
so.cal
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Ben your posting shows clearly that your just a pompous ass and asses like you are the worst thing that has happend to our sport. For you to declare Yosemite some exclusive climbing area is arrogant to say the least. Should we rename it Benwah Valley??? Because you were born twenty years to late to experience the Valley without the crowded crags full of gym climbers that aren't welcome by your special ass doesn't allow you to blame them for your petty problems. Climbers taking 24hrs on RA is a problem for you??? Your really are a schmuck to put then down. As far as adding bolts to free routes that had them chopped before the Cringe is a good example of were they weren't needed so who cares if one was added? Just pass it and show these gym climbers some sack.
Are the bongloads to much for you or are you sober when you imply failure is somehow unethical? Wake up and take another bongload and explain how failures of yours are just peachy and somehow ethical. Oh you must be one of the special few that never fail and can claim Yosemite your very own so everyone else go away. You and Bryan Law should be held up as icons for the chimp-ass fairy tales written on this thread. It was really news to me that you were the gatekeepers and ethic police of Yosemite, what as#@&%e were you two jerks born out of.
"I do not believe ...... that the first ascent party has perpetual rights over routes they establish."
What you posted above doesn't jibe with that drool??? So with those standards why should you care what ASCA does? Your circular thought brings it all back to leave it the f*ck alone and go climbing, you aren't the one to tell others how, when or where to climb so STFU and allow ASCA to do their thing. If you don't like those big bolts and hangers maybe you should be the tough guy and not clip them.
If you were really as special as you think you are you would just go cordless and STFU but here you are whining and telling people how,when and where to climb?? Just because you consider yourself some kind of ethics "keeper of the flame" I can't pass up the opportunity to tell you what an egotistical jerk you are, it sucks you even climb.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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ben-
for all your posturing and fatalistic cows-are-falling-from-above rhetoric, it's almost as if you think the valley is about to become a sport clip destination. are you noticing that the only discussion anyone else is having with you is about the safety of anchors, and the utility of those that were/are used for rappell, while your comments keep going back toward midpitch protection? stop equating the 2 issues.
it strikes me that when you count the odd beefy anchor bolts that may offend you at this cragg or that are all tallied up, it's gonna total about 3 bolts, simply because the majority of anchor situations are straight-forward and generally don't inspire such controversey. not that 3 bolts are no problem at all, but let's keep some perspective in the conversation.
IMHO, the problem w/ your own "best style" ethics, as you proclaim them here, is that they don't extrapolate very well. the free soloist example posted above is the obvious end point to the discussion, and the fact is that your argument would advocate for the right of peter croft or someone just as rad to chop every bolt they felt was superfluous to their ropeless ascent, doesn't that trouble you? cause that's what you are advocating.
why aren't you griping about the "grid bolting" of trade routes on el cap? what about all those slammer anchors? what are you gonna tell your daughter about that? ("listen honey, no need to step up if you are gonna haul..." ?). it seems like la cosita is small potatoes in comparison. maybe you just expect that no one would even give you a listen if you were to suggest that those el cap trade routes should all have anchors that are "comperable" to those of the FA? start preaching left and right about that and at least you will be consistent.
and who says the FA looses their rights to the line? you? that seems a bit like having your cake and eating it too. maybe you should poll the FA'ists and see what they think of that? (i like an idea of karl's, about creating a data base of the FA's opinions and intentions, since you won't be able to just call these old dads forever!) aside w/ issues of propiety, the main problem i see is this: if you can argue about the style of an FA being too well protected, why can't you argue about a climb being too poorly protected? the fact is, either one is just a subjective judgement by others, after the fact. you are all for it, so long as you happen to agree w/ the judgement, but that may not always be the case, what then? (the best style according to whom?)
their is a reason they call it the "FA ethic", and it alone avoids the slippery slope of subjective discussion by those who follow. if you really do fear the wholesale retrobolting of climbs in the valley and elsewhere, the last thing you should do is to f*#k w/ the FA ethic- if you make it flexible when you see fit, why can't everyone else? they make motorcycle riders wear helmets now, why? because it's safer that way, and it costs the public less. if the protection can be revised w/out the permission of the FA, and that were to become the standard, what would happen if the government someday steps in to regulate climbing in national parks? think they will let you have R or X rated climbs?
pandora's box- at least that is the best argument i have heard in favor of the "FA ethic"
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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re."Newsflash, Gymmies: Nothing personal, you are probably all very nice people, but you are not wanted. If you stay away from the park I promise I will not come to your gyms. Deal? "
Nope! See ya in the Valley.
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wildone
Social climber
the little ditch
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Nice posts, matt and dingus //\
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2005 - 12:42pm PT
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Ballaorama, and Matt, too,
Sounds like you're the ones in need of a few bongloads. I am not advocating pushing my ethics by force onto anyone. That I is why I am discussing them in this forum; I wish for people to voluntarily see things my way and agree with me and keep things the way I like them. Is that selfish? sure. But you want things the way you like them, too. Otherwise you wouldn't be all het up and posting imprecations at me.
I am all against the gridbolting of El Cap, now that you mention it. I have moaned about the added bolts to the Salathe wall many many times. I think that every manky 1/4 bolt on every wall should be replaced by a fatty, but if the anchor only had one bolt, then there should only be one bolt there forever. I dislike these twenty-bolt belays.
Though I do not advocate it very strongly, I would not be bummed to see the "best ascent" ethic established, where a freesoloist could chop all bolts and make people step up to the bar he raised. It would keep me off tons of routes, but the sport of climbing would be a prouder thing for it.
At the end of it all, Matt, La Cosita is really small potatoes-but it is one place where the problem occurs, so it's a good place to begin. Besides, while you go on and on about safe anchors, how safe are bolts that do not have the nuts snugged down tight? I will again repeat my two requests to the ASCA:
1) Replace anchors only at the location of the original.
2) make sure you're henchmen know how to place bolts before giving them gear.
For those of you who think I am pompous, pontificating, snobbish, selfish and maybe just a big jerk: I am! I am even a snob at people who aren't snobbish enough for me.
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Ballaroama
Trad climber
so.cal
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If you follow through with any of the jackass ideas of yours, best ascent crap, I promise to hunt you down and kick your little elitist ass, not to mention break your fingers so you will never climb again. Make a note to yourself that if you chop bolts to make others climb at your standard you have crossed a line that you will regret. Once again I can't help but ask why do you think you can tell others how and at what level to climb at??? You need your ass kicked really bad and you are idiot and obviously think you are something special. Also you think you know the history of what you spew about, you don't know jack. Chop more bolts for your silly ego and you will pay dearly you looooser. In the first post of yours you ask if ASCA gets out of line, well you are way out of line and not by any mistake. ASCA may have made some mistakes because we don't live in a perfect world, your mistake is claiming to be on a higher level and if you do what you preach you better look over your shoulder. Snob climbers like you telling others to stay away from the Valley?? Piss-off bitch.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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re."That I is why I am discussing them in this forum;"
No you're not. Declaring matter of factly who should and should not be allowed to climb in Yosemite and demanding that they follow your self imposed standards is NOT a discussion. In fact, nothing you have written would lead one to believe that you are remotely interested in a discussion.
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