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UncleDoug
Social climber
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"You don't know anything about Cantor, he's part of my Republican Jewish Coalition group. I know him extemely well, do a little research first."
Jeff,
What was posted in error?
If you can't answer that, you do not belong in government.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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" I fully expect however, whatever they do
they will be allowed to have access to meeting rooms."
I certainly hope so. That was a very low point for the republicans when they started denying dems meeting rooms. I hope we grow out of the win at all cost ideology.
Blue, it is a nobel thing you attempt to try to restore conservatism. I hope you will take note of what the Paul wrote earlier about the juxtaposition of liberalism and conservatism. I think it bears understanding.
"Liberalism is the idea that humans can solve their problems through rational processes and that each individual human has rights and deserves respect. It also embraces the idea that we never know for sure what is coming in the future, so it pays to be open minded and have a wide range of skills to have a chance of dealing with the unexpected. Liberalism accepts that change is inevitable, that we need a wide range of skills to deal with it.
Conservatism in my mind is the idea that change is not always for the best and that too much change all at once is impossible to understand and even more change all at once is impossible to survive. If you have too much change at once, you can not tell what caused the change and you can not tell what effects the change will have. Conservatives prefer changes to be slow and manageable, ie steady economic growth."
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2008 - 02:51pm PT
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John, I'm not sure if I agree with your definitions, but whatever...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2008 - 03:15pm PT
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From Karl's earlier post, he asked;
1. I've heard conservatives are fiscally conservative but over the past 30 years the GOP presidents have had larger deficits so how much is fiscal conservatism alive still? How does being fiscally responsible square with our system where money is created by creating debt and growth is required to keep our monetary system afloat in a huge international system?
Fiscal conservatism is needed. Spending by the government needs to drop dramaticly. Some gov't programs/offices may need to be axed.
2. I've heard conservatives believe in freedom and keeping government out of our business but the only thing I've seen them do is try to keep government out of our "money making business" How doe any of this square with wiretapping citizens without warrant, spying on non-violent peace groups, eliminating Habeas corpus and such?
It doesn't. Some of your examples are grey-areas. I support wire-tapping extremists to prevent violence, don't support tapping peaceful, non-violent dissenters.
3. What is freedom?
Less gov't. Being able to live my life with my family with a minimum of gov't interference.
4. How much morality should be enforced by law?
Depends. But as a rule, not much.
5. What is the relationship between religion and government.
Except from having traditional symbols from the 'founders' on monuments, they should be seperate. 'The Congress shall make no laws endorsing a religion nor condemning the free expression thereof'.
6. Some conservatives used to be non-interventionist and somewhat isolation oriented. How much should we be the world's policeman? When do we spend lives and money to do war and war-lite?
More isolationism, but monitor events globally and intervene when we deem a threat to our nation. Missile defense should also be a priority if we're to isolate. When not directly threatened, use a coalition to dissolve the threat.
7. Are the checks and balances of government important or do we need a super powerful president who can ignore subpoenas and ignore laws?
Haha.
8. What balance of debt versus taxes should finance whatever budget we decide on?
It should be leaning to taxes, but that's why we need to reign in spending...so that taxes don't have to go up.
9. How does conservatism deal with the environment? Can market forces be trusted if we see situations where real harm is being done?
No. Also "the environment" is a big area, be more specific. We should take more of a conservationists role not a Greenpeace enviro-nazi approach.
10. What do conservative social programs look like? If we eliminate certain social programs, what do we do about the fallout? (say we ditch medical or welfare but then desperate people turn to crime or die on the streets? Do we build poor houses?)
I have a hard time believing that the 'founders' thought it was a good idea for the Fed to be responsible for every citizen's healthcare. Leave the Fed out of it (maybe have a program for people under a certain income level). As for welfare, have a timeframe for guaranteed welfare (2 years) before they have to find a job. People truly unable to work would be exempt, but this number is very small as there's a job somewhere for everybody IMO.
11. How much is it just about "just don't tax me much and I don't care about the rest?"
C'mon. This is something to that but 'not caring about the rest' isn't true. It goes back to premise that the less gov't in your life, the more freedom you enjoy.
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apogee
climber
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Paul's liberalism/conservatism comments are more of a view of the world, and not values per se.
What are the specific constructs of conservatism, and how do they differ from liberalism? It would be especially useful to define those elements that have been a part of conservatism since it's inception vs. those that have occurred in the last 40 years.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2008 - 03:47pm PT
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This where I'm coming from:
Liberals want more gov't spending/programs to deal with issues, and as a result, condone higher taxes to pay for them.
Conservatives want minimal gov't spending/programs to deal with issues that will be resolved States/other interests, and as a result, require less taxes.
This is a generalization of course, but the basics nonetheless.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2008 - 04:08pm PT
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Riley, the tree-stters, ELF, ALF, and any group reorts to violence or civil disobediance, generally speaking.
Has Kennedy been asked about Wind Farms off the East Coast?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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pop quiz blueguy:
what ill be the 1st and greatest structural obstacle for creating any viable political party?
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jstan
climber
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(Jumping up and down)
Me! Me! Let me answer that question!
Attitude.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2008 - 04:34pm PT
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Money?
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apogee
climber
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Bluering's point-by-point response to Karl seems to contain several of the core values of conservatism (pre-religious right/neocon era):
*Fiscally conservative spending
*Minimal governmental intervention in the lives of citizens (this would likely extend to minimizing social programs)
*Minimal international intervention (unless US interests are threatened)
These seem to be core conservative values that Goldwater would agree with...are there more? Are these correct?
Minimal taxation policies, while commonly thought of as a Republican trait, don't seem likely to be part of it's core values, except to the extent that it results in intrusion into citizen's lives.
Religion and morality are obviously different issues, but don't seem to be solely the property of conservative ideology and values- they have just been politicized that way.
The issue of the environment is not solely the property of liberalism, either- it, too has been politicized that way. Republicans have a very strong history of protection and preservation of the environment (Roosevelt-NPS, Nixon-EPA, others). Is there something uniquely different about liberal vs. conservative views of the environment? (I realize one could easily find horrific examples of where each party has compromised this.)
How about capitalism and corporatism- are there parts of this that are unique to conservatism, or is capitalism associated with conservatism simply because it tends to further it's interests?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2008 - 04:45pm PT
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Good question with regards to capitalism vs corporatism. The latter tends to be associated with the failed neo-con policies. Capitalism worked damn well before the mega-corporation age that was bred by capitalism.
There used to be a time when a CEO/president of a company operated for the good of the company and board of directors. Now, with golden parachutes and the like, they can knowingly run a company into the ground with the prosmise of a nice package for themselves. Screw the investors and employee pensions!
That kind of midset needs changing. This is where a capitalist system requires oversight/regulation.
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apogee
climber
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Then what is the trait of conservatism that is appealing to capitalism? Conservatism has been around well before the religious right merged with it, and existed well before capitalism became the driving force of America. (Or am I mixing conservatism and republicanism? Are these two separate yet complementary beliefs?) I would suspect capitalism merged with conservativism for similar reasons as the religious right- it furthered their interests.
Sorry for all the questions, folks. I'm trying to dissect this issue and understand it better. I appreciate the knowledge base and constructive dialogues that occur here, especially when the vitriole can be dropped.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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that's right bluey-
now Q #2:
why will it be SO freakin hard to get any real money?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2008 - 05:26pm PT
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Apogee.."Or am I mixing conservatism and republicanism". Yeah, I think so.
Generally, capitalism is the free flow of goods and services governed by laws of supply and demand. A 'free market' so to speak.
Matt, what is 'real money'. There are rich, disenfranchised conservatives who'd prolly pony-up.
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apogee
climber
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Conservatism and Republicanism may be one and the same or slight variations of each other, but they are definitely not Capitalism.
Can anyone clearly define conservatism and republicanism, and differentiate them if necessary? Again, what is it about these ideologies that was so attractive to capitalist interests that resulted in them being associated so closely? Fact is, it is easy to argue that liberalism and democrats are just as intertwined in capitalism. Why did capitalism become primarily associated with the GOP?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2008 - 06:17pm PT
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Can anyone clearly define conservatism and republicanism, and differentiate them if necessary? Again, what is it about these ideologies that was so attractive to capitalist interests that resulted in them being associated so closely? Fact is, it is easy to argue that liberalism and democrats are just as intertwined in capitalism. Why did capitalism become primarily associated with the GOP?
Let me take a stab and others can add their say.
First of all, Repubs are not necesarrily conservative.
Republican is a political party that tended towards conservative policies regarding gov't in the past. Nowadays, Repubs have become greedy and beholden to lobbyists and neo-conservative policy. Neo-con's are all about capitalism, but it's capitalism-at-all-costs, profits, profits, profits, with little regard for financial stability or responsibility.
As far as an attraction to capitalism it's obvious that neo-cons would love a totally unregulated capitalism. Repub's are perceived to be capitalists because they are perceived to be better money managers, pro-business, and tend to advocate a free-market with minimal gov't intervention.
Dems are perceived to be better spenders of tax dollars and also are perceived to be a burden to business.
These are general perceptions, not necessarily true in the case of every politician.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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As a conservative I want
Fiscal Responsibility
Social Responsibility
Enviromental Responsibility
The current Republican Retoric dams all the above.
When I see a change I will re-register as a Republican.
fattrad your not a conservative. A Republican perhaps, but not a conservative.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2008 - 08:46pm PT
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I kinda agree...mostly.
Fatty's a neocon AND a Republican. Proud too. He is only a partial neocon though, he does care about environmental crap and outdoors issues. He's one of us, he prolly thinks I'm too much of a 'gunrack' conservative than a 'country club' Republican, and he's prolly tight, but we have much more in common.
There is some very common ground, I just think we need more traditional conservatism, he'd prolly agree. Neocons do well in a trad system
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just passing thru
climber
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The American Dream is a personal belief of how you want to live.
At the core of conservative thought is the guarantee of the American Dream.
The liberals believe in the American Dream too--just as long as you don’t make too much money and have the right size carbon footprint.
Just got to get rid of the Religious Right crap and substitute in some good ol fashion Libertarianism. It will happen, my generation (X) of conservatives don’t go for that RR crap.
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