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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Oct 25, 2008 - 07:23pm PT
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JM-
i see the above as an honest and open statement of your beliefs.
still, i find the following fault(s):
individuals in our nation are NOT subject to YOUR religious beliefs. whether or not they happen to be tollerant is not relevant. for you to justify your intention to vote on the basis of your religious beliefs, indeed on the basis of a particular teacher's influence, is really no different than jody justifying his vote or his opinion in the same way.
fundamentally, you are making the same argument as he is, in that you seem to think that the rights of others should be subject to the standards of your religion-based opinions.
i could not disagree more on that point.
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Flashlight
climber
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Oct 25, 2008 - 07:30pm PT
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For the sake of argument, lets say people ARE born with homosexual thoughts/tendencies, etc. They still CHOOSE to act on those thoughts/tendencies.
If people are BORN homosexual, how come there are ex-homosexuals?
(I know, your argument is that they probably weren't homosexual to begin with...weak)
I don't understand how you folks can say that just because I don't approve of certain behavior, that I HATE the person. One of my good friends partakes in pre-marital sex, a behavior disapprove of. Does that mean I HATE him?
Another good friend is a lesbian and has a No on Prop 8 sign in front of her house. She knows how I feel yet knows that I am the most loyal friend she has and has told me that. How can I HATE her because I don't want her to engage in homosexual behavior? You folks are really the close-minded ones here. I want to help homosexuals out of their behavior, not condone it.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 25, 2008 - 07:31pm PT
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Matt, Perhaps I do not understand where you are coming from. How is your position any different? Your religion/ teacher is in part science.
What else should I base my opinion on?
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Flashlight
climber
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Oct 25, 2008 - 07:37pm PT
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Our bodies are designed(oops, sorry, have evolved) for reproduction. You are not "born" homosexual any more than you are born a pedophile, a murderer, etc. No scientific evidence of being "born" homosexual has ever been found.
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andanother
climber
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Oct 25, 2008 - 07:38pm PT
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"I want to help homosexuals out of their behavior"
Why don't you just mind your own god damn business? Why is that so difficult?
You break the rules of the Bible and commit sins every single day. More so than many of the other atheists on this forum.
It has been noted many times before, but you are NOT a good person.
So why are so eager to overcompensate on this subject?
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Oct 25, 2008 - 07:38pm PT
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jody-
simple answer- social pressure, pressure to conform.
JM-
my answer is simply that under our constitution, an individual's rights trump any group's religious (or a-religious) interpretation of what those rights ought to be.
in terms of science based opinions on policy, in this case, it would not be applicable, IMO.
we are talking about persecution.
Persecution
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Persecution is the systematic mistreatment of an individual/group by another group. The most common forms are religious persecution, ethnic persecution, and political persecution, though there is naturally some overlap between these terms.
so tell me, what is the difference if the persecution is based on religious beliefs or not?
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Grant Meisenholder
Trad climber
CA
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Oct 25, 2008 - 07:43pm PT
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-She knows how I feel yet knows that I am the most loyal friend she has and has told me that. -
Uh, yeah... Some friend. Remind me not to ask you to be my "most loyal" friend. Either that, or she's a verrrry lonely person.
-I want to help homosexuals out of their behavior, not condone it.-
You just don't get it. It's NOT a choice. Just like it's not a choice for you. You feel repulsed by seeing gays physically express affection. They feel the same way about us. And what's worse, they have to live in a world saturated in those images.
People who "are saved" from a gay lifestyle are either lying to themselves and will be not ultimately be happy, or they never were genetically gay to begin with. Feel free to try and convert all the gays you want. Just don't try to legislate your uneducated, divisive, and intrusive point of view.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 25, 2008 - 07:44pm PT
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I think you're all homo .....
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S.Powers
Social climber
Jtree, now in Alaska
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Oct 25, 2008 - 07:45pm PT
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"You folks are really the close-minded ones here. I want to help homosexuals out of their behavior, not condone it."
We shouldnt force people to change their lifestyles if they dont want to. I dont think anyone here cares if someone is gay or not. Caring that someone is gay and trying to vote the "gayness" out of them is the only close minded thing here. You can belive what you want but forcing other people to "live" by your standards is just wrong (Unless they are commiting a crime, then folks like you and I have to do our jobs)
Jody, I like you as a person, dosn't mean I care for your political veiws, I would never vote for a proposition that banned your "right" to be conservative.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Oct 25, 2008 - 07:45pm PT
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jody-
is the earth 6000 yrs old?
does the bible speak the true and accurate word of God?
(i.e.literal translation?)
could God have set off the big bang?
could there have been dinosaurs?
is the universe billions of years old?
how do you know God didn't make gays gay?
and why are you afraid of peoiple who are not like you?
a simple search of *certain* internet sites, or strolls down certain city blocks in almost any american city, will clearly demonstrate that anal sex is apparently interesting to (and even enjoyable for) at least some heterosexuals.
how do you know God didn't do that on purpose?
if you want to honor God's creation, honor all of it, not just the parts that remind you of your own experiences.
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Flashlight
climber
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Oct 25, 2008 - 07:46pm PT
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Grant, so a friend is someone who just lets you do your thing and never chastises you about anything?
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Flashlight
climber
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Oct 25, 2008 - 07:47pm PT
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Matt, God created the person, not the activity. I honor the person, but not their activity.
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Flashlight
climber
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Oct 25, 2008 - 07:48pm PT
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I think Werner is a homo.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 25, 2008 - 07:51pm PT
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" How can I HATE her because I don't want her to engage in homosexual behavior?"
Jody, you are arguing that it is a choice. They say it isn't. Therefore you appear hateful to them because you are trying to inflict a position on them that they feel they can do nothing about. If you want to do this right, then first convince them it is a choice. If you can't, then you are forcing your opinion on them with this vote, which is a hateful thing.
You believe in God. At this point, if you have followed your faith and done at least some of the work of putting off the carnal mind and putting on the mind of Christ, then for you it should feel like there is no longer any choice in believing in God. God Is, and therefore you have a knowing. Yet ultimately it is still a choice, even though it may no longer feel to you like one. You may still feel that you have a choice of whether you follow God or not, but most likely you do not feel there is any choice in believing in God because for you, God is Real.
Now imagine if someone told you you were no longer allowed to believe in God. You might be willing to die for this choice because you would not see it as a choice.
Homosexuals have that same feeling, and to force them to not honor their feelings when they hurt no one but those involved, is beyond how I believe God wants us to treat others. As long as a choice does not harm others, then Respect for free choice is one of God's highest standards.
.....................
Matt, I will have to think about what you said.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Oct 25, 2008 - 07:55pm PT
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jody, bookworm, et.al.-
this is more like voting for (or against) blacks marrying whites than anything to which you have compared it. people who were viewed as less than equal had their rights restricted, legally, by a righteous majority who made identical arguments to those you now make.
JM-
suppose your teacher said that black people were angry for what had happened to them in a previous life. regardless of your conclusions based upon those teachings, why would (or should) that have anything to do with the rights that our society afforded to all black people?
(i sincerely hope my analogies are not offensive to anyone, black or white, i am trying to point out how silly i beliee anti-gay arguments are, nothing more)
edit-
JM- i wrote that before reading your last post.
let me say that i DO of course find you to be quite tollerant and loving, and i love that about you, i always have.
still, our individual rights as americans are not based upon each others religious tollerance, instead our religious tollerance is guaranteed by our individual rights as americans.
and jody-
loving the person and not their actions or their beliefs, that principle is also all that redeems you, sir.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 25, 2008 - 08:02pm PT
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I think that I get your point now Matt. Thanks. And I agree. Fundamental rights are protected. I'm just not certain that marriage is a basic right. I will have to think about that one.
Just so you know, my teacher teaches us to follow our own inner guidance and not rely on some outer teacher. I bring up my teacher at times because sometimes I do not trust my own understanding.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Oct 25, 2008 - 08:09pm PT
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JM-
i enjoy the clarity with which you are able to communicate.
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Domingo
Trad climber
El Portal, CA
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Oct 25, 2008 - 08:11pm PT
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Flashlight,
Why is marriage between two males or two females immoral? As in, where does the immorality stem from? Who defined it originally?
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Flashlight
climber
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Oct 25, 2008 - 08:12pm PT
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Domingo, I have explained it many times.
Here it is again.
God created man and woman. He created them for each other. He did not create man for man or woman for woman.
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seamus mcshane
climber
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Oct 25, 2008 - 08:16pm PT
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Are hermaphrodites a mistake by God?
Who are they created for? Larry Flynt? Hehehe.
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