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jbar
Mountain climber
Inside my head
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Sep 30, 2008 - 04:59am PT
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Hell no the "poor" taxpayer shouldn't get bailed out. I'm poor. I work hard. I bought a home responsibly. I didn't buy a 400K house on a limited income. I left my job and went to fight a war so I could make enough money to qualify for a loan and put a roof over my family's heads. I make my payments even though they go up every year. I don't have excessive credit card debt. I don't buy crap I shouldn't when I can't afford my bills. I don't have 11 children. I don't have premium cable channels and didn't have a new t.v. until this year when I was forced to buy one. I don't have a $2x,xxx car. I don't even have a home phone. Just a cell with the basic plan. I see people that make more money than I do strugeling to get by because of the poor choices they make. My parents are included. They recently had to borrow money from ME to pay a bill. I tried to explain to them how cutting back on the $100/week of junk from walmart and $20/week on cigarettes would net them more than enough to pay off their debts but they just don't want to hear it. The ONLY thing that we need fear is credit drying up. Maybe the gov can offer some type of program to prevent that. If we loan money we need to get it back. No more loans like to Delta that we know are just charity. We don't need to give money to homeowners. We have built way too many homes with our growth based economy as it is. Where are the fat cats that earned 90 million in 6 years or 160 million from this farce? Lets hit them with fines and use the money for a bail out. We seem so eager to fine oil companies for their profits what about people like Raines. Didn't he say the housing bubble wouldn't burst right before he took off with his loot? And why is it that NOTHING can get passed without the pork? What does an emergency bailout designed to prevent another depression have to do with money donated to political organizations. Do you still believe your elected officials on the hill have nothing to do with our situation and it's all the Presidents fault??
I don't know what we need to do (think intelligently, use common sense, trash the partisan politicking, not give away my money) but we need to do something. We still have gasoline issues and the asian markets are suffering. I was able to get 12 gallons last Saturday. I use 20 a week just to work. Every station near me has been out for the last two days. I went to 5 stations on the way to work. If I can't find gas in the morning I will not be able to go to work on Thurs. Who gives a rats arse who gets elected puppet of the U.S.?? Your Senators and Representatives are strangling us.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2008 - 05:02am PT
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Rawr I'm angry!
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jbar
Mountain climber
Inside my head
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Sep 30, 2008 - 05:08am PT
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Grrr, not angry. Just dissapointed so many stupid people inhabit the same planet. At least physically.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 30, 2008 - 05:23am PT
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These things are cyclical. This morning on CNN I saw an interview with a bloke (can't recall his name) who was president of acquisitions (or something like that) at Morgan Stanley, and he was against the bailout and he made some good sense. The CNN reporter told the guy that his comments were refreshing, going against all the doom and gloom of other pundits, politicians and our own Dubya.
Things will correct themselves in time.
That said, it is amazing how the greed and incompetence of these financial institutions and their executives in the US can affect the rest of the world.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
http://tinyurl.com/4oa5br
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Sep 30, 2008 - 05:25am PT
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What is this going to do to Camp 4?
Pretty soon, there is going to be a mass exodus of squatters into the hills.
Something like that first pitch to the Klondike.
And I bet a few of them will be climbers.
Reserve your spot now.
It looks like Chongo is going to win after all.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Sep 30, 2008 - 09:32am PT
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i expect things to get worse before they get better, but when a 7% drop in the dow is referred to as a "plummet" i think hysteria has taken over...and comparisons to the depression, i think, are a stretch
the bank failures are being taken care of by the market because the banks still have cash...the foundation of our economy is still the producers, not the financiers, and the producers (people who actually make stuff) have, what, $30 trillion worth of liquid value? and there was no fdic in 1929
i'd like to see Lawrence Lindsey's idea...allow all home owners to refinance at 4% (i'd pay 5-10 grand to do that); the influx of cash would have an immediate stabilizing effect on the mortgage industry, the market, and the banks...
steyn made a good point:
"As a general proposition, when told by unanimous elites that a particular course of action is urgent and necessary to avoid disaster, there's a lot to be said for going fishing*. If the entire global economy is so vulnerable that only the stalwart action of Barney Frank stands between it and ten years of soup kitchens, can it, in fact, be saved? Or look at it the other way round: Given any reasonable estimate of the number of headless chickens running around, was the five per cent fall in Asian markets and seven per cent "plummet" on the Dow in reaction to the House vote really the catastrophe some of my pals round here seem to think it was? If fear of seven per cent falls is enough to justify massive unprecedented government intrusion into the private sector, we might as well cut to the chase and go for the big Soviet command economy."
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Sep 30, 2008 - 10:35am PT
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This may have been posted already: 95 Dems voted against the bill. Some Dems stated that Pelosi put no pressure on them to vote yes. In other words, politics still seems to be the salient factor in the issue not saving the economy. I smell a rat in all this posturing and panic. I'm glad the effort failed; we need to wait and give a reasonable amount of time to see if things settle a bit. I'm beginning to believe that if all the underlying agendas became apparent, we'd be hanging pols from lampposts for a week; and that's from both parties.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 30, 2008 - 10:50am PT
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The tactics to sell the bailout were classic "Patriot Act" rush and fear. For heaven's sake congressmen .."Don't read it, there isn't time, it must be passed today"
That's enough to make us beware of being robbed by the lame ducks.
"When they sell you a pig in a poke, they want to keep it that way. And Those who think it's buyer beware and people should be smarter etc etc, well, yeah, they should, but they are not, and lots of not so smart but honest people get screwed out of their houses every day by sneaky underhanded folks-- and it is entirely legal, if not moral. Check out the documentary, "Maxed Out", for some seriously sick examples of this. "
If "Buyer Beware" was part of the problem, we should learn our lesson and make it part of the Solution. We being offered a 700 billion deal that we don't understand and may not afford. Who will benefit?
An investigation, even "truth and reconciliation" inquiry style to see how innocent this was is in order. How much of this mess was consciously created to cost somebody else? All this money that people made on sub-prime loans and inflated housing prices didn't just evaporate (lots of money DID evaporate but much evaporating into people's pockets on the seller's side while evaporating from the equity on the buyer's side)
anyway, buyer of bailout beware. Let's take the time to find out what's really up and just fight a few fires along the way minimalist style while protecting our interests.
Peace
Karl
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Sep 30, 2008 - 11:00am PT
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Karl
On the money, that's for sure
Everyone out there should call your representatives
and tell them HELL NO to the bailout, unless it's just for
those that had houses foreclosed on through unscrupulous lenders.
Let Wall Street lose some more gamblers. It's socialism for the rich only to get richer after they robbed us blind.
There needs to punative action against these crooks, and Paulson should not get an unlimited check to write as he sees fit, with no oversight whatsoever. Let Bush take his lumps.
He caused a lot of it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 30, 2008 - 11:03am PT
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http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1845209,00.html?cnn=yes
".....Do not be fooled. The $700 billion (ultimately $1 trillion or more) bailout is not predominantly for mortgages and homeowners. Instead, the bailout is for mortgage-backed securities. In fact, some versions of these instruments are imaginary derivatives. These claims overlap on the same types of mortgages. Many financial institutions wrote claims over the same mortgages, and these are the majority of claims that have "gone bad."
At this point, such claims have no bearing on the mortgage or housing crisis; they have bearing only on the holders of these securities themselves. These are ridiculously risky claims with little value for society. It is as if many financial institutions sold "earthquake insurance" on the same house: when the quake hits, all these claims become close to worthless — but the claims are simply bets disconnected from reality.
Follow the money. Average Joes and Janes are not the holders of the other side of complicated, over-the-counter derivatives contracts. Rather, hedge funds are the main holders. The bailout will involve a transfer of wealth — from the American people to financial institutions engaging in reckless speculation — that will be the greatest in history........Rather than bailing out Wall Street, we propose that the government should buy up the actual mortgages in question and do nothing else. The government should not touch any derivatives; that is, claims that do not directly tie into the actual mortgages. If money becomes too tight, then the Fed can certainly increase its loans to financial institutions.
Let the poorly managed, overly risk-taking financial institutions fail! Always remember that Wall Street and the real economy are not the same thing."
Peace
Karl
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 30, 2008 - 11:08am PT
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Bookworm, why am I not surprised that you would quote something from Mark Steyn. Not to get too personal, but have you made love to your Ann Coulter blowup doll yet?
More on topic...
This "crisis" has been long in the making. Why should any of us intelligent people (okay so I am not intelligent but I can bluff) be surprised about what has happened.
Since I have no solutions to the problem, perhaps I should keep my trap shut.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Sep 30, 2008 - 11:14am PT
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It may or may not have been a *bi-partisan* bill, but it damn sure was a bi-partisan rejection.
When Karl and I can agree that something is a turd, it probably is.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 30, 2008 - 11:21am PT
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"When Karl and I can agree that something is a turd, it probably is."
Well put Chaz. I do not usually agree with you, but this bailout plan sux as it is.
One thing is for sure, my Paccar stock has taken a beating. I have lost about $25,000 in value in the past week. My editor, who is one of Ireland's best financial journalists, said I perhaps should exit because the trend does not look great (it was around $65 a share about a year ago).
But as I have posted earlier, these things are cyclical and, although it is not a great stock but a solid one, I will hang on for another year or so.
Now, about my other shares...
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